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<blockquote data-quote="Ainamacar" data-source="post: 5772509" data-attributes="member: 70709">For me the basic success or failure of the 5e cleric will hinge on whether each character feels like it majors in &quot;Devoted doer of my god's will in my god's way&quot; and minors in &quot;Doer of basic clericy things&quot;, and not the other way around.&nbsp; Dropping the minor might be even better!&nbsp;&nbsp; Both 3e and 4e fell far short here, so 2e with kits might have been the closest thing so far.&nbsp; Since totally unique per deity spell lists isn't practical for an entire&nbsp; system (something I spent a lot of time doing in 3.5), something like domains or spheres seems the obvious choice.&nbsp; I really did love the 3e domains, though, for tossing in some truly oddball spells and abilities.Mechanically, I think the cleric should pretty much just be scaffolding on which to build spell casting and appropriate miscellaneous class abilities, all determined by sphere/domain and/or specific deity.If there is to be a feature shared by all clerics (besides spell casting) I would go for the most iconic thing I can think of: miracles.&nbsp; Occasional (once or twice per adventure?) level-appropriate miracles, like access to a spell or inexpensive ritual not normally available, maybe even a minor arbitrary effect, could be hugely flavorful and helpful without making the class' intentional limitations pointless.&nbsp; Heck, maybe even larger effects if a permanent character resource were spent, like foregoing a class feature to create a relic, if we can avoid the problems of Wish.&nbsp; I'd probably require the cleric to risk some mechanical resource (this is petitioning after all) and, unless there were very convincing roleplaying, roll a &quot;faith&quot; check vs. a DC determined by the deity's basic attitude toward the requested miracle.&nbsp; Either way the risked resource is lost, but on a success the miracle occurs.&nbsp; Pelor causes just enough crops to grow in a single day, Kord grants his Righteous Might to a faithful layperson in an hour of need, and by Moradin's will you pull a stout and fully-formed stone hammer from the walls of your prison cell.&nbsp; And when it counts maybe even a high-level cleric of Ioun can raise the newly dead in battle, or use a massive earthquake to knock the enemy forces from a cliff, or any number of iconic effects that rightly aren't in his usual bag of tricks.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ainamacar, post: 5772509, member: 70709"] For me the basic success or failure of the 5e cleric will hinge on whether each character feels like it majors in "Devoted doer of my god's will in my god's way" and minors in "Doer of basic clericy things", and not the other way around. Dropping the minor might be even better! Both 3e and 4e fell far short here, so 2e with kits might have been the closest thing so far. Since totally unique per deity spell lists isn't practical for an entire system (something I spent a lot of time doing in 3.5), something like domains or spheres seems the obvious choice. I really did love the 3e domains, though, for tossing in some truly oddball spells and abilities. Mechanically, I think the cleric should pretty much just be scaffolding on which to build spell casting and appropriate miscellaneous class abilities, all determined by sphere/domain and/or specific deity. If there is to be a feature shared by all clerics (besides spell casting) I would go for the most iconic thing I can think of: miracles. Occasional (once or twice per adventure?) level-appropriate miracles, like access to a spell or inexpensive ritual not normally available, maybe even a minor arbitrary effect, could be hugely flavorful and helpful without making the class' intentional limitations pointless. Heck, maybe even larger effects if a permanent character resource were spent, like foregoing a class feature to create a relic, if we can avoid the problems of Wish. I'd probably require the cleric to risk some mechanical resource (this is petitioning after all) and, unless there were very convincing roleplaying, roll a "faith" check vs. a DC determined by the deity's basic attitude toward the requested miracle. Either way the risked resource is lost, but on a success the miracle occurs. Pelor causes just enough crops to grow in a single day, Kord grants his Righteous Might to a faithful layperson in an hour of need, and by Moradin's will you pull a stout and fully-formed stone hammer from the walls of your prison cell. And when it counts maybe even a high-level cleric of Ioun can raise the newly dead in battle, or use a massive earthquake to knock the enemy forces from a cliff, or any number of iconic effects that rightly aren't in his usual bag of tricks. [/QUOTE]

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