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<blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6023451" data-attributes="member: 6684526">Ugh, no, wrong.&nbsp; I don't see any other way to put it.&nbsp; Skills for everything is terrible with the way D20 works.&nbsp; Lets say you want to make a village blacksmith (or maybe his apprentice) who picked up a forge hammer and fought back against orcs attacking the village.&nbsp; And when everyone around him died, he started adventuring, but still remembers his blacksmithing roots.&nbsp; A player wants to make this character in 3E.&nbsp; So they... well, lessee.&nbsp; They're a fighter.&nbsp; They don't see this guy as a genius, but he's not dumb.&nbsp; So they put a 13 into Int.&nbsp; They pump 4 points into Craft (Smithing).&nbsp; Oh wait, that's not a craft skill.&nbsp; They put 4 points into Craft (Weaponsmithing) and 4 points into Craft(armorsmithing).&nbsp; They then beg the DM to let them use Armorsmithing as kind of a general smithing for things like nails, horseshoes, y'know, things people use in day-to-day life.&nbsp; The DM being kind, agrees.So the armorsmith decides to try and figure out what he can do.&nbsp; A suit of banded mail costs 250 GP.&nbsp; That's 2,500 SP.&nbsp; The DC on banded mail is 16.&nbsp; So if he succeeds, he will score around 16*(16-25, average 20.5) points, or 328.&nbsp; So on average he will take 7.6 attempts.&nbsp; Of course the odds of him failing and wrecking everything are failing by 5 or more, so 11 or below.&nbsp; That's a 30% chance of failure.&nbsp; So he can take a feat to get +3, but he still fails 15% of his rolls, and that's highly likely to screw him in 1 out of 2 armor suits he makes or so.&nbsp; So he jimmies things around and puts a 16 in Int, and now he can make a reasonably basic suite of armor.Of course he's basically screwed his entire character over in multiple ways to pick up the ability to be a blacksmith who can make a goddamn suit of armor at the first level.How many 3E characters have a background like &quot;studied all my life at a wizards school?&quot;&nbsp; Or &quot;Wandering farmboy who made good?&quot;&nbsp; How many of them actually have an intricate background that shows up on the skill sheet?&nbsp; Very few, because you PAY A PENALTY for having an interesting character history.&nbsp; The 3E skill system ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES roleplaying, by making players who take skills that reflect their background suffer in comparison to those who do not.At least the 4E skill system is neutral on the entire matter, besides the idea that the master wizard in the tower who has studied arcane phenomena his entire life probably has around the same check as the guy who just graduated, because all skills are +5.&nbsp; That's not quite as destructive to roleplaying as rewarding people who take interesting skills with gimp characters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="GreyICE, post: 6023451, member: 6684526"] Ugh, no, wrong. I don't see any other way to put it. Skills for everything is terrible with the way D20 works. Lets say you want to make a village blacksmith (or maybe his apprentice) who picked up a forge hammer and fought back against orcs attacking the village. And when everyone around him died, he started adventuring, but still remembers his blacksmithing roots. A player wants to make this character in 3E. So they... well, lessee. They're a fighter. They don't see this guy as a genius, but he's not dumb. So they put a 13 into Int. They pump 4 points into Craft (Smithing). Oh wait, that's not a craft skill. They put 4 points into Craft (Weaponsmithing) and 4 points into Craft(armorsmithing). They then beg the DM to let them use Armorsmithing as kind of a general smithing for things like nails, horseshoes, y'know, things people use in day-to-day life. The DM being kind, agrees. So the armorsmith decides to try and figure out what he can do. A suit of banded mail costs 250 GP. That's 2,500 SP. The DC on banded mail is 16. So if he succeeds, he will score around 16*(16-25, average 20.5) points, or 328. So on average he will take 7.6 attempts. Of course the odds of him failing and wrecking everything are failing by 5 or more, so 11 or below. That's a 30% chance of failure. So he can take a feat to get +3, but he still fails 15% of his rolls, and that's highly likely to screw him in 1 out of 2 armor suits he makes or so. So he jimmies things around and puts a 16 in Int, and now he can make a reasonably basic suite of armor. Of course he's basically screwed his entire character over in multiple ways to pick up the ability to be a blacksmith who can make a goddamn suit of armor at the first level. How many 3E characters have a background like "studied all my life at a wizards school?" Or "Wandering farmboy who made good?" How many of them actually have an intricate background that shows up on the skill sheet? Very few, because [B]you PAY A PENALTY for having an interesting character history. [/B] [B][SIZE="3"]The 3E skill system ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES roleplaying, by making players who take skills that reflect their background suffer in comparison to those who do not.[/SIZE][/B] At least the 4E skill system is neutral on the entire matter, besides the idea that the master wizard in the tower who has studied arcane phenomena his entire life probably has around the same check as the guy who just graduated, because all skills are +5. That's not quite as destructive to roleplaying as rewarding people who take interesting skills with gimp characters. [/QUOTE]

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