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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6023724" data-attributes="member: 7006">That was definitely one of the things about Playtest 1 that I agreed with.  A player doesn't say "I'm going to make an X check" (and by extension usually choosing a check they are really good at)... but instead says "I'm doing X" and then the DM selecting which ability score applies.THAT'S the way I think it should be.  Because it opens up the game more.But as far as skills are concerned... the problem I feel with the skill lists (both in 3E and 4E) are that they are TOO BROAD.  They apply TOO OFTEN.  If the purpose of the game is REALLY to make ability checks be the primary function and be the BROAD check for things... then the bonuses from skills should be applied infrequently enough that they become a very special bonus... a much more FOCUSED knowledge or ability, and not an expected part of the game.So no... I don't want to see Athletics as a skill.  I don't want to see Arcane Lore as a skill.  I most certainly do not want to see Perception as a skill.  Because all of those "skills" pretty much REPLACE the ability check that they are meant to modify.In my opinion... any skills you get from a Background should be narrow enough that getting to use it is a special case and a special bonus, and that +3 (which is HUGE!!!) is a time for celebration.  That +3 should not be an expected part of any ability check.  Because when players expect +3s on most of their checks... it renders the actual ability score modifier moot by comparison.To me... Commerce is an AWESOME skill.  Because it doesn't cover EVERY situation like Diplomacy does (thereby rendering Charisma checks virtually moot), it only applies to a small segment of interactive situations that a PC will find himself.  And so when it happens, getting that +3 is a BIG DEAL.  And on top of that, Commerce doesn't apply to just ONE ability score.  Haggling with a shopkeep (a CHA check), appraising the value of some item found (an INT check), knowing if a fence is lying to you (a WIS check), etc. etc.But now, we have to ask ourselves... what is Commerce?  It's actually THE BACKGROUND itself.  It's the Commoner - Merchant Background.  Which is basically what I've stumped for in the past.  In my mind... there's NO NEED for an actual skill list... all you need is your Background, which will tell the DM all he needs to know about when you should get a +3 to a particular ability check.  If you're a Noble... you would get a +3 to a CHA check (ie Diplomacy) when interacting with the king.  But you WOULDN'T get a +3 to the CHA check (ie Diplomacy) when interacting with a member of the Thieve's Guild.  Why would you?  It makes no sense.  But unfortunately, with a Skill List... that Noble PC gets Diplomacy as a skill, and thus it applies to EVERY situation, even though the Background itself shouldn't really apply.If your Background is Pirate... I'd give you a +3 to your STR check for climbing ropes and rigging.  But I wouldn't give you a +3 to your STR check for climbing a rock face without ropes, because rope climbing and rock climbing are two different skills.  Athletics would have of course merged them together... but all that does is render the STR check moot because Athletics would get layered over it in almost every situation.If your Background is Artisan... you'll get +3 bonuses from me for various types of perception checks much more often than you would if you were a Knight or a Thug.  You'd also get that +3 to recognize various images or pictures of things like heraldic banners or deity symbols... because you've got a trained eye to remember those kind of pictures (which otherwise would have only fallen under Skills like Historical Lore, Heraldic Lore or Religious Lore).  As an Artisan, you'd get that +3 from me for CHA checks to impress a nobleman, or to pretend to be someone else (especially if your artistic expression was theater).  But does that artistic eye give you a special +3 to find a secret door?  If the door was hidden by being painted to look like the surrounding wall, maybe... but if its blocked by a moving bookcase or something, nope, not at all.To me... your ability scores are paramount.  THEY should rightly be the primary bonus modifier to any d20 check.  But as soon as Skills become so broad and widespread that a PC rolls more than half of his checks GETTING the +3 bonus... the ability score checks have LOST whatever it was that was making them special.</blockquote>

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