What skill opposes Gather Information?

[Atridis]

Let's say the Bad Guys are trying to learn something about Our Heroes. Where they live, who they hang out with, what PC Class they are, that sort of thing. How do the PCs conceal themselves or mislead their adversary? Bluff? Disguise? Hide? Sleight of Hand? Those skills all seem tactical, rather than strategic, if you know what I mean.

If it helps, the situation I'm envisioning is that of a stereotypical Thieves' Guild. In order to do their job, they have to simultaneously communicate with people and remain secretive. So a Gather Information roll against them has to be possible, but they must have some means of controlling the information that's available about them.

Similarly, anyone who ticks off said Thieves' Guild ought to have some pro-active means at their disposal of not being discovered. Although, really, what might the Gather Info skill bonus be for an entire Guild? The highest individual bonus, with an Aid Another roll from EVERY OTHER MEMBER of the Guild? Yikes. Better to simply avoid stepping on their toes, I expect...

 

[MerakSpielman]

There isn't a skill to oppose Gather Information, but you can, as a DM, make the DC for the Gather Information roll higher based on extenuating circumstances. You might apply a +4 modifier to the DC if the players are trying not to be conspicuous or something.

 

[youspoonybard]

I'd make it an Opposed Gather Information check... : P

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Gather info is supposed to be used for things that could be commonly known. So, if the villains want to find out where the PCs were staying, they might use gather information. If they want to find out where the PCs buy their food that's gather info.

Now, if gather info is being used against the thieves' guild, their being secretive will increase the DC. After all, commonly known info is easy, stuff that most people don't know is rare. But that's probably not enough for the guild. They know that, given enough time, people will find out about them. So they employ measures:

1. Intimidation. People know that ratting on the thieves' guild is a good way to wind up face down in the harbor. Gather info may find you who knows the information but it doesn't guarantee that he'll be willing to share (at least the way I'd run it). Convincing someone to tell you of the guild would require a diplomacy/bluff check to convince them that either you aren't planning on harming the guild so there won't be retribution or that helping you is the right thing to do or that you can and will protect him. (Protecting him would probably require spending resources too).

2. Intimidation. Gather info is a pretty public skill. You need to talk to lots of people to find who you're looking for. And if you're asking questions you shouldn't be asking, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the goon squad to show up and tell you to quit asking so many questions. If you want to avoid tipping off the goon squad, you can disguise yourself (so they won't know that the same guy was asking questions yesterday) or attempt to ask the questions subtly so that people who overhear don't know what you're talking about (the innuendo version of bluff) or you can be very careful about who you ask and when/where you ask them. (Probably entails a penalty to the gather info roll and a sense motive roll to figure out which informants might be trustworthy).

3. Proceedure. So the investigator finds how to meet the thieves' guild. Is it in guild HQ? Of course not. You contact them by asking for a shaken witches brew with a manticore tailspike at the Green Goblin pub and then walking out to cutthroat alley behind Butcher's row where the guild will contact you. (And a dozen guildmen with crossbows will be watching from the rooftops). Gather info generally gets you that meeting not the location of guild HQ.

4. A secret known to more than two people isn't a secret and a secret known to only two people is more secure if one of them is dead or mute. A lot of the guild's activities are known only to insiders. They keep slaves to do cleanup but they cut their tongues out so that they can't tell anyone anything they hear. Maybe they somehow deafen them too and communicate with them by sign language. Or maybe they use undead (skeletons--zombies are too messy and smelly) to do their serving. Gather info won't find you that kind of information (although it might give you clues as to who does know it and where they might spend their gold so that you can track them down and interrogate them).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have some suggestions....

(1) As for how many Aid Anothers would be allowed, I suggest you allow a "reasonable" number. For simplicity's sake, assume the PCs are somewhere in particular and those who look in the wrong general area automatically fail in their Gather Information or Aid attempt. That will allow you to break up the Rogues into reasonable teams with one highly skilled guy and a couple of lackeys who sweep an area. If enthusiastic, they might make a sweep every day.

(2) I would set the DC for finding the PCs at around 20, assuming they are very discreet but are not disguising themselves. If they do disguise themselves, set it higher. If they are taking no precautions, set it lower. A sufficiently high roll will mean that the Thieve's Guild will eventually find out information on where the PCs are at this moment.

(3) The appropriate counter skill to Gather Information is Gather Information. If the PCs win, they would get tipped off about the efforts to find them and would have opportunity to take countermeasures (disguise themselves, change disguises, change locations, etc.) before being discovered. Do consider situational mods like bribes on both sides.

I would envision a cat and mouse game (assuming the PCs have good Gather Information skills), where the PCs get a tip like: "I hear someone has a pretty good description of your dwarven friend there. And some shady characters have been asking questions in this neighborhood." The PCs could move somewhere, etc. If the Thieve's Guild had a good enough roll (step #2), they find out: "Yeah, they stayed the last two nights. But they left this morning. No idea where they went."

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The DM sets the DC, so if they were good to hide their doings, the DC will be higher (it isn't common knowledge that the nice shopkeep from water road is the head of the local assassins' guild - it might not even be common knowledge that there is a local assassins' guild)

You might use disguise to cover your activities.

 

[Atridis]

Hm, okay. So Gather Info opposes Gather Info. I guess I can see that. For the purposes of "counter-intelligence", Disguise could provide a Synergy Bonus. If you wanted to get really intricate, say if you're running an espionage campaign, things like Bluff, Intimidate and Sleight of Hand could provide Synergy Bonuses too. That would reflect the effect that these "tactical" skills have on the "strategic" level.

And I like the idea of breaking up a group effort into, say, districts of the city. This simulates the "they have spies everywhere" feeling without it simply being impossible to make a move.

Anyone played Spycraft? Do they have rules for "the trade" or is it all guns, gadgets, and car chases?

 

[Al]

I don't agree that Gather Info opposes Gather Info. Rather, I would think that Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate would do so.

BLUFF:
"I'm on a very important mission from the king. It's top secret- don't tell anyone about it, and you will be richly rewarded at the end."

If used appropriately, Bluff can give the potential informant rational reasons not to give away information. It can be used to convince him that it is in his best interest that the party's activities remain secret. Of course, if he sees through the Bluff or is dubious, then this won't work.

DIPLOMACY
"It was good speaking to you. Whatever you do, please, please don't talk to the Thieves' Guild."

A good friend of yours is less likely to rat you out to the Guild than a faceless informant. Diplomacy is the art of making friends.

INTIMIDATE
"Speak to the Guild and I'll kill you. Then kill your family."

The classic in guild wars is the usage of Intimidate. Aside from the obvious drawback that the Guild can also use Intimidate (to see which side the informant is more scared of), this can be a cheap and dirty method to keep people quiet...particularly if you've bumped off informants in the past.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Al,

I think your answer definitely applies, but it is insufficient IMHO. Individuals can be persuaded, yes. But if a group of adventurers is working in a city there are dozens and dozens of individuals who could potentially finger them -- down to the beggar on the corner.

It is impractical to have a little talk with all of them.

 

[Crothian]

So, you use a Gather Info check to determine who knows something about you. Then you use Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimadate on these people.