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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Transit" data-source="post: 3073994" data-attributes="member: 19585">The difference is trying to "Take 20" with a series of opposed rolls and then somehow saving and transfering the best results to a single opposed roll later in the day.Personally I don't allow Take 20 to be used with Hide.  I'll point out that the Modern SRD specifically says that a character can’t Take 20 with Hide.  (Since it's all supposed to be part of one big "D20 System" I think that ruling should go for D20 D&D as well.)But even if you/your DM choose to allow Take 20 with Hide, there's still nothing in the Take 20 rules that says "Take 20 allows an opposed check to be made repeatedly against one friendly opponent, and the best result saved and used later against another entirely different opponent who only gets one chance to beat the check."Take 20 is meant to skip over boring dice rolling and get right to the check result.  It should never CHANGE the result of a check, or change the way a check is made.  It should only speed up the time it takes to get the SAME RESULT that "rolling until I succeed" would have achieved, not make it possible to do something that is impossible in normal game play.The ONLY effect that Take 20 would have on the Rogue when he's practice hiding with his friends is that the Rogue succeeds in hiding from his friends FASTER, without wasting the time that "rolling until success" would take.  It shouldn't be used to deny the Hobgoblin nineteen Spot checks that he would have gotten to make in normal play.Let's reverse the situation.  The Hobgoblin wakes up his three Goblins at dawn, and tells them to go Hide all around the encampment.  As the goblins scurry into the bushes, the Hobgoblin Takes 20 on Spot, checking out all the good hiding spaces that his goblin allies find to hide in.  The Goblins also each Take 20 on Spot, checking out the hiding places the other goblins have found.  Soon the Hobgoblin and his friends have all successfully Spotted each other.So later when the Rogue tries to sneak into their camp, the goblins automatically Spot him with the 20+ Spot checks that they saved from their preparations earlier that morning.In my opinion, not fair at all.If I were the Rogue trying to sneak into camp, I'd never let my DM pull this.  How can they "pre-spot me" just by practicing spot with their friends?  And just because they spotted a Goblin hiding in this bush twenty times this morning, how do they then automatically get a Spot 20 against me when I hide in the same place?Nothing in normal play allows the results of a check to be shifted from one situation to another, or saved for later.  Take 20 doesn't change that.  If a castle has the same kind of lock on every door, the Rogue can't Take 20 on open locks with the first lock, then walk over to another door later and instantly open it with a 20.Lastly, if Take 20 does work with Hide this way, then every monster in every dungeon in the world is currently sitting there with a 20+ Hide check ready to go, just waiting for a dungeon party to come along.  And every sentry at every castle is standing around with 20+ already pre-rolled on Spot and Listen.Just gums up the game too much.In the end, I think ambushes are much better handled by giving circumstance bonuses to the Hide check.  If the Rogue gets there early, carefully prepares his hiding spot, blackens his armor and weapons, smears his face with mud, ties strips of cloth around any equipment that might "jingle" etc. etc. he may end up with a +20 Hide check anyway.</blockquote>

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