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What solution for "Cantrips don't feel magical"?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7543682" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>light - if five different characters all chose light (over say Dancing Lights) for one of their few cantrips, then that says something about how important they feel having light is in that game. How many should not take that and risk the downsides in order for the others to feel special? Who makes the call as to who gets to cover that if not the players? Is it better if that occurs not by having five different classes all with light but with them all choosing one class because its the only one with light?</p><p></p><p>In short, which of those players do you as Gm want to say "no, you cannot do that cuz its not magical enough if you do?"</p><p></p><p>As opposed to run a setting where the need for light is not so overwhelming that everyone spends their cantrip slots to cover their bases?</p><p></p><p>You want to make them seem more unique and different with their light spells because you somehow think every single spell should be unique - do descriptive stuff that makes them different. They already can alter the colors as they choose so encourage them to describe the light sources differently. maybe the wizard chooses a stark practical flourescent light, maybe the bark a disco ball, maybe the cleric a glowing symbol of his god's symbol maybe the druid is a moon etc. </p><p></p><p>Again, not believing personally that every practical effect has to be unique or the horrors swarm in.,. but there is a lot more to the game for flavor than "by the numbers" mechanical differences.</p><p></p><p>And again - five players from five classes decide to solve the light problem with the same spell - what is your "system" solution to that *choice* they made? Who gets told "if you want light, play the same class as the others" is dividing the spells is your solution? </p><p></p><p>Arrows - no, longbows as one tool of the martial types do not make the martial classes feel unique - because that is just one tool, one aspect of the class and the "differences" between the classes is not from how every single tool at their disposal works mechanically. Wizards, sorcs and wizards can be very different and very magical even if they share a similar solution for "its dark and i dont have darkvision". </p><p></p><p>The disconnect is that somehow if a spell, any spell, works the same then the classes have no differences and arent special type of claim.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Optimal and system - by 5th level the players have seen a bit of a game and expectations - and if five people all want fireball thats more speaking of setting than system. They have chosen a tactic of the spam fireballs mosty likely because they have seen it as a solution based on what they see but that is a statement about the game, not the rules and frankjly its not even a good solution because unless your gm is hand feeding tons of fireballs, the power of the fireball drops pretty greatly after a few have thinned out the crowds. </p><p></p><p>But again, optimal varies by campaign.</p><p></p><p>On what is special -absolutely - its not the tools (the individual spells) that make the classes different and special - its the other features of the class. Sorcery metamagic - bam -special. Wizard benefits from necromancy or anjuration or evocations etc etc etc - special. Portent dice to get fixed results for a hit or a save vs your spell - again - all create the different and unique - just like a fighter's longbow is the same as a barbarians but the class features **if they choose them** can make the longbows perform differently. </p><p></p><p>Just like say that sorc with light spell might produce light at range or tins it to get two.</p><p></p><p>fighter, ranger pally longbows are not doing different things <strong>unless they choose to* and utilize class features or other choices to make that happen. </strong></p><p></p><p>For balde ward - did the sorc use subtle spell so it wasn't seen? Did he choose to quicken it so he could do that and also get a action left over and make attacks or cast spells? </p><p></p><p>Tolls/weapons/spells perform the same if your characters make the same choices and choose not to use features that make them different.</p><p></p><p>The degree to which you choose to perceive the magic as coming from the mechanics is up to you. if you do not want to see anything that isn\t a mechanical difference as a difference then hey, thats cool. But if the players make choices and those choices lead to the same mechanics because thats what they have seen works for your game - that is not a rules issue. </p><p></p><p><strong>And again - what is your solution if you do not see players making choices to get the same mechanical effects as acceptable?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p></p><p>Cuz thats what you are saying - if the players all show up with light and light does what they wanted then its not special enough so... what is your RULES fix if you see this as a RULES issue? Which of them gets told "nope, no light for you" unless they choose a different class of caster than they have options for now?</p><p></p><p>I simply allow my casters (and warriors and others) a great deal of latitude with descriptive and rationalizations - so, four different light spells might each produce the mechanics benefits of 20' bright, 20' dim 1 hour on an object etc - but not be "all the same" and "mundane" at all.</p><p></p><p>mechanics =/= flavor or special.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7543682, member: 6919838"] light - if five different characters all chose light (over say Dancing Lights) for one of their few cantrips, then that says something about how important they feel having light is in that game. How many should not take that and risk the downsides in order for the others to feel special? Who makes the call as to who gets to cover that if not the players? Is it better if that occurs not by having five different classes all with light but with them all choosing one class because its the only one with light? In short, which of those players do you as Gm want to say "no, you cannot do that cuz its not magical enough if you do?" As opposed to run a setting where the need for light is not so overwhelming that everyone spends their cantrip slots to cover their bases? You want to make them seem more unique and different with their light spells because you somehow think every single spell should be unique - do descriptive stuff that makes them different. They already can alter the colors as they choose so encourage them to describe the light sources differently. maybe the wizard chooses a stark practical flourescent light, maybe the bark a disco ball, maybe the cleric a glowing symbol of his god's symbol maybe the druid is a moon etc. Again, not believing personally that every practical effect has to be unique or the horrors swarm in.,. but there is a lot more to the game for flavor than "by the numbers" mechanical differences. And again - five players from five classes decide to solve the light problem with the same spell - what is your "system" solution to that *choice* they made? Who gets told "if you want light, play the same class as the others" is dividing the spells is your solution? Arrows - no, longbows as one tool of the martial types do not make the martial classes feel unique - because that is just one tool, one aspect of the class and the "differences" between the classes is not from how every single tool at their disposal works mechanically. Wizards, sorcs and wizards can be very different and very magical even if they share a similar solution for "its dark and i dont have darkvision". The disconnect is that somehow if a spell, any spell, works the same then the classes have no differences and arent special type of claim. Optimal and system - by 5th level the players have seen a bit of a game and expectations - and if five people all want fireball thats more speaking of setting than system. They have chosen a tactic of the spam fireballs mosty likely because they have seen it as a solution based on what they see but that is a statement about the game, not the rules and frankjly its not even a good solution because unless your gm is hand feeding tons of fireballs, the power of the fireball drops pretty greatly after a few have thinned out the crowds. But again, optimal varies by campaign. On what is special -absolutely - its not the tools (the individual spells) that make the classes different and special - its the other features of the class. Sorcery metamagic - bam -special. Wizard benefits from necromancy or anjuration or evocations etc etc etc - special. Portent dice to get fixed results for a hit or a save vs your spell - again - all create the different and unique - just like a fighter's longbow is the same as a barbarians but the class features **if they choose them** can make the longbows perform differently. Just like say that sorc with light spell might produce light at range or tins it to get two. fighter, ranger pally longbows are not doing different things [B]unless they choose to* and utilize class features or other choices to make that happen. [/B] For balde ward - did the sorc use subtle spell so it wasn't seen? Did he choose to quicken it so he could do that and also get a action left over and make attacks or cast spells? Tolls/weapons/spells perform the same if your characters make the same choices and choose not to use features that make them different. The degree to which you choose to perceive the magic as coming from the mechanics is up to you. if you do not want to see anything that isn\t a mechanical difference as a difference then hey, thats cool. But if the players make choices and those choices lead to the same mechanics because thats what they have seen works for your game - that is not a rules issue. [B]And again - what is your solution if you do not see players making choices to get the same mechanical effects as acceptable? [/B] Cuz thats what you are saying - if the players all show up with light and light does what they wanted then its not special enough so... what is your RULES fix if you see this as a RULES issue? Which of them gets told "nope, no light for you" unless they choose a different class of caster than they have options for now? I simply allow my casters (and warriors and others) a great deal of latitude with descriptive and rationalizations - so, four different light spells might each produce the mechanics benefits of 20' bright, 20' dim 1 hour on an object etc - but not be "all the same" and "mundane" at all. mechanics =/= flavor or special. [/QUOTE]
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