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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Delgaddo" data-source="post: 4340016" data-attributes="member: 67180">A major problem with the stealth RAW is that there is no defined state for the condition given by a successful stealth check. I know the current consensus seems to be that stealth is not a state just a descriptor for various actions – but the RAW don’t seem to jive with this interpretation even though it’s the one being put forth by WotC atm.  Some examples:In the KotS adventure on Page 41 it states," ..allowing them to duck out of sight, attempt a stealth check, and then (if the check suceeds) attack from hiding."   It doesn't say attack stealthily it says attack from hiding. Page 134 of the MM under the Gnome Skulk’s shadow step ability, " When a gnome skulk makes a melee or a ranged attack from hiding and misses…" In the stealth rules under success on page 188 it says "You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden". Page 21 of the DMG says "The Kobold slinger attempts to lure the PCs into the room, where the others hide."  The PHB refers to hiding in various areas such as the Rogue level 6 exploit Chameleon on pg. 120 where the trigger is "You are hidden and lose cover an concealment"  If hidden is not an actual state then WotC needs to errata all the above. If hidden is an actual state recognized in game then how does one define being Hidden? Does it mean a target is unaware of you, or a target just can’t see you, both, or does it mean no opponent can see you or is aware of you? It seems that the stealth section in the PHB says that by passing a stealth check with cover and concealment you are "hidden from view." which I interpret as you become hidden. But it doesn’t say what hidden is, does or means in game terms anywhere!!  The section on combat advantage doesn’t recognize a condition of hiding as a means of gaining combat advantage– it just says an opponent is unable to see the attacker and unaware of you– are both of these criteria the definition of Hidden -assuming hidden actually exists in game terms?  Also what is the game definition of unaware - another vague term at best.   The problem I’m wresting with is that if hidden is to be a condition like the other defined conditions (i.e dazed, prone, etc) it has to be absolute. In other words you can’t be hidden from one NPC (i.e your target) but not another. If it’s not a condition then really is just an arbitrary state that should not be referred to in the rules especially as a trigger state for an immediate interrupt.  The only definition I could come up with for an absolute state would be something like the following definition: If A) no opponent has LOS to you or B) you have cover against or concealment from all opponents with LOS to you and you pass a stealth check against them, then you are hidden. You remain in a hidden state until you attack, make a loud noise (large gray area no doubt) or no longer have any cover against or concealment from any opponent who has LOS to you. While hidden you are granted combat advantage against all opponents. The problem with this is that is greatly hindered a rogue’s ability to drop in and out of a hidden state (if that is in fact what they do) since it requires cover against all opponents instead of just his/her target.  The whole hidden, unaware, out-of-sight, stealthy nomenclature is a total cluster-F***. They really need to clearly define what they heck they mean by the words unaware, hide and hidden and how stealth and combat advantage relate to them. It seems like they constantly use different terms and conditions to describe what seem like states but are not recognized as such. Please understand I’m not pushing a certain solution just the idea that we need one and what precisely I’d like to see addressed in the solution. </blockquote>

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