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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Xorn" data-source="post: 4344263" data-attributes="member: 61231">Well, at least my thread on this has died.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Stealth as written says you AVOID notice.  With all the dictionaries cracking open around here, I feel justified in pointing out that it doesn't REMOVE notice.  So once you have been spotted, you have to move to a place where you can't be seen before trying to stealth again.  (Superior Cover or Total Concealment, which state you can not be seen in the Stealth rules.) In order to continue to AVOID notice then, you have to make stealth rolls, and stay in cover/concealment.  I agree that allies do not provide actual cover for the purposes of Stealth.  Actively using Perception in combat is a minor action (Targeting What You Can't See). If you want to hide, then you're technically "moving stealthily" so they don't see you.  If they are already looking at you, be as stealthy as you like, you're already noticed, so you only avoid notice, not erase it. This is not the Rules As Intended according to CSRs spoken with. However, Keep of the Shadowfell, written by Mike Mearls and Bruce Cordell, specifically mentions that the goblin have to get out of sight before using stealth to attack from hiding.  I interpret that to mean I'm right, you have to have superior cover/total concealment in order to use stealth AFTER you have been noticed. Now, if you use the Rules As Intended (according to CSRs who contradicted most of what they said) you have some really quirky side effects: - A first level rogue will in cover/concealment will be able to sneak attack the average kobold 95% of the time from range, making it easier to sneak attack from range than in melee. - That same rogue will only be able to sneak attack a riding horse 75% of the time, because apparently the horse is has an intricate understanding of crossbows and realizes it's in danger. - In the Monster Manual, high stealth creatures like the halfling slinger will specifically mention in their tactics to make a stealth check before combat to hide and attack with combat advantage.  But then goes on to say that after they are SPOTTED, they stick to cover and attack from range.  Not, "they stick to cover and make a stealth check for combat advantage, even though we had to spell out for you to stealth before combat", just... stick to cover.  Ranged attacks. I don't know what the CSRs were talking about, but Stealth in my campaign AVOIDS notice.  You want to gain combat advantage after you have been noticed in combat?  Bluff check, or Superior Cover/Total Concealment.  Now the target has lost sight of you and you have slipped their notice.  Resume avoiding. I'm not posting again, just wanted to summarize everything I said in my 17 page thread.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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