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Message: <blockquote data-quote="theinternetisbig" data-source="post: 4347646" data-attributes="member: 58134">Stealth isn't magicI really don't see what all the hubub is about (aside from someone trying to ridiculously abuse the stealth skill like they did hide and move silently in 3rd ed)  If someone is aware of you, then you don't get combat advantage from stealth... If someone can see you, rolling stealth is worthless.  Succeeding on stealth does not mean the opponent is not aware of you. There must be an aspect of movement with the stealth (through squares that provide concealment/cover) that prevents the opponent from knowing where you are. Only in this way can stealth grant combat advantage in an ongoing battle.  Successfully making a stealth check only ensures that the enemy cannot see you currently, it has no connection to the monster knowing your location. To gain combat advantage through stealth (total concealment) you must prevent the enemy from knowing where you are. e.g. hiding and moving, crossing only squares that have cover/concealment, or perhaps teleporting to an area with cover/concealment.  The example with the ranged rogue gaining combat advantage from hiding behind an ally, rediculous! Hiding behind an ally does not prevent the creature from knowing where you are! (aside from the first round, when the enemy didn't even know the hider was there in the first place.) Perhaps, If you hid behind a line of allies and moved to a concealment/cover providing location you would have combat advantage. (Imagine a rogue sneaking behind a line of friendly fighters to a bush, then sneakily stabbing an enemy on the other side of the line in the back.) of course, if there are any gaps that don't have cover/concealment then stealth (i.e. total concealment/combat advantage) is lost.  The 2' wide wall would provide a place to hide, but without a place to move to; and therefore to leave the enemy confused as to where you might be; there would be NO WAY to gain combat advantage, as the enemies would be aware of your location. (a rogue hiding behind a pillar means nothing, if the enemies know he is hiding there. Alternatively, a rogue who was hiding before the enemies knew he was there would be perfectly set up for combat advantage.)  This ties into total concealment (hidden + enemy is unaware of your location), trying to target an enemy with total concealment requires that the attacker guess the square to attack, that is because the attacker doesn't know where the target is! In other words, the target hid from view, and now they aren't where they should be... AKA the target hid and then moved without giving up their location.  To sum up:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hiding does not magically wipe the enemies minds as to where you likely are (that would be a good idea for a rogue power). To gain combat advantage from hiding, the enemy must have a very limited idea as to where you are. e.g. when you make your attack with combat advantage, to the enemy you are coming "out of nowhere" because they didn't have a clue where you were.</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stealth is (and darn well should be) harder to use for combat advantage in ongoing combat. It requires (and darn well should require) a bit of strategy to attain.</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Seriously, folks, its not rocket science... Its stealth! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></li> </ul>Most of the "Problem" seems to stem from people not wanting to use common sense, and trying to find a way for their rogue to get combat advantage without putting said rogue within reach of those bad, bad monsters. Stop pussyfooting around, pull out that short sword and go for the flank. If you aren't willing to put your sneaky rogue butt on the line, you don't get the sneak attacks every round... Tough. You will have to come up with ranged attacks that give combat advantage, and sell them to your DM. -Theinternetisbig20 year DM, one time M:tG judge, and all around big time geek.</blockquote>

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