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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 729323" data-attributes="member: 3146">That would be true if there were no multiclassing in 3e. However, in reality, the 16th level fighter archer of the examples we're discussing is an illusion. Archer characters tend to be things like:Ftr 8/Rog 4/Rgr 2/Bbn 2orFtr 4/Wiz 2/Order of the Bow Initiate 1/Arcane Archer 2/Deepwood Sniper 1orFtr 2/Wiz 2/Bbn 1/Rgr 1/Rog 2/Arcane Archer 2orBbn 1/Brd 7/Arcane Archer 3While a 16th level fighter would have run out of archery feats to take ages ago and diversified into melee feats as well, most of the other characters will have only a few non-archery feats.Similarly, while melee characters will often carry a mighty bow, they rarely spend the feats to be competent archers once melee is joined for several reasons:1. They have more feats available to them and don't run out as quickly.2. They multiclass almost as much as archers and rarely run out of melee feats to take.A lot of melee characters look likeFtr 4/Bbn 1/Rog 2/Rgr 1or Ftr 4/Clr 3/Bbn 3orPal 2/Rgr1/Clr 3/Templar 10orPal 2/Rgr 1/Clr 3/Templar 3/Knight of the Chalice 7See above. They don't have the extra feats to take the three archery feats necessary to be an effective archer (Point blank, precise, rapid shot). Most do buy a bow though.If the melee fighters catch up in damage due to cleave and power attack is an open question (they'll only catch up if they're very well optimized for two handed weapon combat or two weapon fighting). In any event, this kind of a battle is a rarity for most adventurers. Usually, their careers consist of being ambushed or travelling through dungeons.You really don't get it do you? It's not about melee fighters not having ranged weapons. Most do. The point in the damage comparison is that archers are very competitive if not superior to melee fighters in dealing damage in or shortly out of melee range.I think you're about the only person who thinks that being a melee fighter means not having a ranged weapon. Or that it makes a difference for what we're discussing here.That's exactly what's in question here. Does the melee specialist in melee compare to the archery specialist? If you ask me, the answer is yes--just barely.</blockquote>

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