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<blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 9064843" data-attributes="member: 6786252">I've read everything you said, I just disagree with you on a fundamental level.&nbsp; From my perspective, you're effectively asking to give the ranger abilities with no cost.&nbsp; You started off with talking about conversing with Awakend animals for favors.&nbsp; And I'm comparing that to talking to angels and gods for favors as a cleric or paladin.&nbsp; Because, in the end, I see it as roughly the same result.&nbsp; So, bringing up established differences in the core book is a &quot;cop out.&quot;&nbsp; Right.&nbsp; And all the different descriptions in the spells themselves about how the components being ignored.I mean, whatever happened to the &quot;flavor is free&quot; stans?&nbsp; There's going to be one Ranger class.&nbsp; And 12&nbsp; core book classes.&nbsp; Trying to pretend that you can just have both spells and spell-less classes with the name &quot;Ranger&quot; in the core is disengenuous.&nbsp; Because that's what this is all about.&nbsp; The 5eR core book Ranger.&nbsp; No one is going to be happy to wait for a future class that may come with what they want.&nbsp; If it ever comes at all, a huge ask.&nbsp; I like the idea of a spellcasting Monster Hunter and Beast Master.&nbsp; And I don't think it dilutes anything when those are two of the pillars of what makes a Ranger, well, a Ranger in my opinion.&nbsp; And, yes, I do see quite a lot of dismissiveness going the other way.&nbsp; Indeed, in many different subjects, including this one, and this very thread.&nbsp; How about the very descriptions of the classes and the spell lists themselves. Or the descriptions in the spells.&nbsp; Or the fact that these are unique to certain classes.&nbsp; There's a million details you're overlooking.&nbsp; Oversimplifying.Firm voice does not equal yelling; indeed, it only refers to being confident and steady, no stuttering.&nbsp; So if you're accusing me of underexaggerating, well, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, because you're certainly overexaggerating.&nbsp; A firm voice is not incompatible with hiding.Random youtubers translating a video game which is exaggerated for extra effect?&nbsp; That's not evidence of anything.&nbsp; Do you need to make grunts or go &quot;Hiyaaa!&quot; when making weapon attacks now? Because tthat's in D&amp;D video games too.&nbsp; Or starting every combat with something like &quot;You shall fall by my hand!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sometimes, things are in games because they make the game more evocative and exciting, not because its true to the source material.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mephista, post: 9064843, member: 6786252"] I've read everything you said, I just disagree with you on a fundamental level. From my perspective, you're effectively asking to give the ranger abilities with no cost. You started off with talking about conversing with Awakend animals for favors. And I'm comparing that to talking to angels and gods for favors as a cleric or paladin. Because, in the end, I see it as roughly the same result. So, bringing up established differences in the core book is a "cop out." Right. And all the different descriptions in the spells themselves about how the components being ignored. I mean, whatever happened to the "flavor is free" stans? There's going to be one Ranger class. And 12 core book classes. Trying to pretend that you can just have both spells and spell-less classes with the name "Ranger" in the core is disengenuous. Because that's what this is all about. The 5eR core book Ranger. No one is going to be happy to wait for a future class that may come with what they want. If it ever comes at all, a huge ask. I like the idea of a spellcasting Monster Hunter and Beast Master. And I don't think it dilutes anything when those are two of the pillars of what makes a Ranger, well, a Ranger in my opinion. And, yes, I do see quite a lot of dismissiveness going the other way. Indeed, in many different subjects, including this one, and this very thread. How about the very descriptions of the classes and the spell lists themselves. Or the descriptions in the spells. Or the fact that these are unique to certain classes. There's a million details you're overlooking. Oversimplifying. Firm voice does not equal yelling; indeed, it only refers to being confident and steady, no stuttering. So if you're accusing me of underexaggerating, well, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, because you're certainly overexaggerating. A firm voice is not incompatible with hiding. Random youtubers translating a video game which is exaggerated for extra effect? That's not evidence of anything. Do you need to make grunts or go "Hiyaaa!" when making weapon attacks now? Because tthat's in D&D video games too. Or starting every combat with something like "You shall fall by my hand!" Sometimes, things are in games because they make the game more evocative and exciting, not because its true to the source material. [/QUOTE]

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