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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zappo" data-source="post: 2292348" data-attributes="member: 633">I don't think that the LotR characters can't be represented in D&D. I think that the issue with Gandalf is that we just don't know enough about him. We know that he can definitely cast weak (in D&D terms) spells, that he is definitely pretty good with a sword, and that he's much more resistant than he looks. This is the part that the low-level Gandalf proponents see. IMO, they forget about multiclassing.There's the whole Maia thing which throws any such estimate out of the window; we know that as a Maia he's a hell of a lot more powerful than any mortal but we don't know exactly how much because he is forbidden from using his full powers.The only solid info we have about that is the battle with the Balrog. We know that he's roughly as powerful as a Balrog, and that a Balrog is damn powerful. Enough to wipe out the rest of the fellowship. I think that considering the Balrog as roughly the same thing as a Balor is a good guess. So this places Gandalf squarely at an 18-20 ECL at the very least.The problem is that we don't know how those ECLs are distributed (which ain't the same thing as saying that the character is not representable in D&D). A reasonable assumption is that the majority of it comes from Maia levels, and that he is forbidden from using his Maia powers. Obviously, he is not forbidden from using his natural armor, DR, BAB or enhanced stats - only his (Su) and (Sp) abilities. This neatly explains why he's so damn hard to hurt but doesn't usually display truly exceptional offensive capabilities except being very good with a sword.Do 15 Maia HD and 5 Wizard levels sound right? That would net a healthy +17 BAB and lots of HP and STs from the Outsider HDs, plus probably loads of DR, natural armor and elemental resistances, not to mention the ungodly Outsider-with-high-INT skill points - and a heap of supernatural and spell-like abilities which unfortunately are wholly unknown. The restriction doesn't apply to wizard spells, though the availability of spells in ME is obviously much more restricted than standard PHB. The result is a character which is well into Epic but who, most of the time, acts as someone with an ECL in the low teens (remember that Wizard levels are definitely nonassociated if he can't use Maia powers), except for being really tough.Finally, Gandalf gets a substantial power boost after the battle with the Balrog. We know basically nothing about the nature of this boost. He says that the fellowship's weapons can't harm him, which isn't something I associate with gaining Wizard levels. He's probably leveled in the Maia monster class, upgrading his DR among other things.In conclusion, my stance is: yes, you can make an adequate D&D mechanical representation of Gandalf which correctly represents pretty much everything he can do in the books and movies as well as why he can't do what he doesn't do. He's a high-CR Outsider with a small number of Wizard levels, who has substantial (Su) and (Sp) abilities but generally doesn't use them. His ECL would be in the low twenties were he to use his full offensive powers. Without them, he has about the same damage output as the other meleers in the Fellowship (who are probably no more than 10th), though thanks to high HD and (Ex) abilities such as DR and natural armor he can tank much better than them.I'll welcome any challenge to this representation, since I feel that it is very solid and doesn't require special rules. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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