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What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?
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<blockquote data-quote="Aaron L" data-source="post: 4125877" data-attributes="member: 926"><p>I'm glad someone said it, or I was going to; everyone keeps blathering on about "market research" and " gamer feedback" when I have seen absolutely NO sins of any kind of survey or concerted effort at gathering feedback since 3E was being compiled. </p><p></p><p>Now, I'm nor saying that 4E will be bad. I actually imagine it will have quite a few ingenious ideas in it. But the thing that REALL irks me is that, with each edition, the game has ottem more and more simplified at the expense of detail. What happened to my list of polearms from the nack og Unearthed Arcana back in 1E. How may types of historical armor were there in 1E? How many types in 2E? Haw man tyoes of pure fantasy armor were there in 3E? ANd now, finally, in 4E, how many types ofpurely fantasy armor are eft? Something like 6 types of armor? </p><p></p><p>That <em>I DO NOT LIKE AT ALL.</em> I am firm believer that in D&D, unless something is supposed to be be blatantly fantastic (fire-breathing dragons, Magic-users casting spells) that the core setting of the game should be based on simple old mundane Earth. That way we don't end up with any more abominations such as 15 pound two-handed swords, falchions that are two-handed scimitars, or Paladins summoning holy mounts out of thin air for so may hours per day. The more down-to-Earth the mundane aspects of the game are, the more believable it is, and the more fantastic the truly magical elements seem to everyone. When the game to to the point where <em>EVERYTZHING</em> is fantastic, and the players say "Oh, ho-hum, another 50 foot fiery demon attacking this tiny little peasant village, didn't this happen last week?" Then the game has lost all sense of verisimilitude, believability, credibility, plausibility, or whatever the Hell the current buzzword of the week you choose to argue semantics about to avoid the real issue. It turns the game into a cheap and tawdry rip-off of genuine fantasy and becomes ever closer to the incestuous "D&D basing itself on prior versions of D&D instead of the ancient myths, legends, and fantasy literature" that 1E was based on. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All in all, I see in the "streamlining" nothing more than "dumbing down." I truly hope I am wrong, but after seeing the armor list the alarms went off in my head and I got a migraine. While people may say "why do we need this sub optimal armor?" I say "because it existed in the history, myths, and legends that the entire damn game is based on!!!) I want my D&ED based on Le Morte D'Arthur and the Once and Future King and the Belgariad and Beowulf and Tolkien and the Wheel of Time and H.P. Lovecraft and Jack Vance (even Lewis Carrol for Gods sake!) and, most especially, <em>ACTUAL frikking HISTORY!!!/i]; I certainly do <em>NOT</em> want my new D&D based simply on what came before in 3rd, 2nd, and 1st edition D&D with the "complicated" (IE, lowest common denominator pandering) things stripped out!</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>So, I guess, all in all, that if when I buy my 4e books and they look like some kind of Pokemon anime extract (and I LIKE anime, but some of the **"special power names are so over the top corny pseudo-anime I want I vomit Pikachu in chuncks all over the floor; it's like the designers saw a <em>bad</em> kiddie anime <em>once</em> and didn't understand anything about it, and thought it was only about flashy colors!) mixed with a few "D&Dish" references, I'll read through the books, shake my head, wipe a tear from my eye, and take them back to the store and politely return them for a refund, and end up quitting playing RPGs all together. Because, despite my greatest efforts, my group will play <em>nothing</em> but D&D, and has taken to naming characters things like Schweps Gingerale and El Anus, in a serious game (which makes me want to physically throttle the guy, except he has something like 270 pounds of fat trumping my 160 pound frame)) and even though I've been absolutely <em>frothing at the mouth</em> to run a CthulhuTech campaign I've been sitting on ever since I got the setting book in December, no one will even <em>consider</em> giving it a chance, simple because it isn't medieval fantasy or D&D of some sort. .</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>**My recommendation for the maneuver names for Fighters and such is either use <em>real</em> European and Japanese style names, which are already evocative enough if translated into English from their original German, Italian, or Japanese, or base the names on the sword forms fro,m the Wheel of Time; Cat Crosses the Courtyard, Sheathing the Sword, Parting there Silk! Stuff that actually <em>SOUNDS</em> like it was named by actual swordsmen, and not by some game designer trying to come up with over-the-top cool sounding names. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>So what I guess I'm trying to say is that I REALLY, REALLY WANT to like Fourth Edition D&D, But I'm VERY AFRAID after reading some of the previews and some of the things the designers have said. Different rules for monsters and PCS? I though that was a BAD thing that was corrected in 3E, but not suddenly its a good thing again that 3E got wrong? I LIKED having the the same rules for both monsters and PCs. Everyone worked under the same laws of physics. There are some thigs you just cant d no matter how hard you try? I though we got rid of that has a horrible relic of 1e, and yet here it comes back again with the Trip "Power."</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>And now, with all that said I truly hope that all my fears are proven completely invalid, and that I will be happy to play 4E when it comes out in a few months. I am very much lookimg forward to the release date and am planning a trip with my friend to the nearest gaming store (which is an hour away from where we live, unfortunately) so we can go over the books together and bounce our impressions off each other. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Well, that's it; this is my last post on ENWorld, at least until 4E comes out; but judging by the atmosphere lately, it will probably be the last forever. I've been here since the beginning, but the bickering, sniping, bitching, vulgar attacks on others, and general vile meanness has been absolutely <em>DISGUSTING</em> lately, and add in this influx of new, callous, rude, insulting, and downright VILE new generation of posters, and I can't take it anymore. My real life is a living Hell, and I used to come to ENWorld to relax and unwind among fellow geeks and gamers and looked to forward to seeing how everyone was doing and getting <em>jut a little relief from the living Hell of real life</em>. Now, I come here and I get sick to my stomach and develope a migraine; it' even WORSE than real life around here anymore. And I can't take it. So goodbye, everyone. I want to leave while I can still remember the happy, fun, polite and cordial place ENWorld used to be like. </em></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Goodbye ENWorld. I will miss the happy place you used to be, and all the wonderful online friends I had made here.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aaron L, post: 4125877, member: 926"] I'm glad someone said it, or I was going to; everyone keeps blathering on about "market research" and " gamer feedback" when I have seen absolutely NO sins of any kind of survey or concerted effort at gathering feedback since 3E was being compiled. Now, I'm nor saying that 4E will be bad. I actually imagine it will have quite a few ingenious ideas in it. But the thing that REALL irks me is that, with each edition, the game has ottem more and more simplified at the expense of detail. What happened to my list of polearms from the nack og Unearthed Arcana back in 1E. How may types of historical armor were there in 1E? How many types in 2E? Haw man tyoes of pure fantasy armor were there in 3E? ANd now, finally, in 4E, how many types ofpurely fantasy armor are eft? Something like 6 types of armor? That [i]I DO NOT LIKE AT ALL.[/i] I am firm believer that in D&D, unless something is supposed to be be blatantly fantastic (fire-breathing dragons, Magic-users casting spells) that the core setting of the game should be based on simple old mundane Earth. That way we don't end up with any more abominations such as 15 pound two-handed swords, falchions that are two-handed scimitars, or Paladins summoning holy mounts out of thin air for so may hours per day. The more down-to-Earth the mundane aspects of the game are, the more believable it is, and the more fantastic the truly magical elements seem to everyone. When the game to to the point where [i]EVERYTZHING[/i] is fantastic, and the players say "Oh, ho-hum, another 50 foot fiery demon attacking this tiny little peasant village, didn't this happen last week?" Then the game has lost all sense of verisimilitude, believability, credibility, plausibility, or whatever the Hell the current buzzword of the week you choose to argue semantics about to avoid the real issue. It turns the game into a cheap and tawdry rip-off of genuine fantasy and becomes ever closer to the incestuous "D&D basing itself on prior versions of D&D instead of the ancient myths, legends, and fantasy literature" that 1E was based on. All in all, I see in the "streamlining" nothing more than "dumbing down." I truly hope I am wrong, but after seeing the armor list the alarms went off in my head and I got a migraine. While people may say "why do we need this sub optimal armor?" I say "because it existed in the history, myths, and legends that the entire damn game is based on!!!) I want my D&ED based on Le Morte D'Arthur and the Once and Future King and the Belgariad and Beowulf and Tolkien and the Wheel of Time and H.P. Lovecraft and Jack Vance (even Lewis Carrol for Gods sake!) and, most especially, [i]ACTUAL frikking HISTORY!!!/i]; I certainly do [i]NOT[/i] want my new D&D based simply on what came before in 3rd, 2nd, and 1st edition D&D with the "complicated" (IE, lowest common denominator pandering) things stripped out! So, I guess, all in all, that if when I buy my 4e books and they look like some kind of Pokemon anime extract (and I LIKE anime, but some of the **"special power names are so over the top corny pseudo-anime I want I vomit Pikachu in chuncks all over the floor; it's like the designers saw a [i]bad[/i] kiddie anime [i]once[/i] and didn't understand anything about it, and thought it was only about flashy colors!) mixed with a few "D&Dish" references, I'll read through the books, shake my head, wipe a tear from my eye, and take them back to the store and politely return them for a refund, and end up quitting playing RPGs all together. Because, despite my greatest efforts, my group will play [i]nothing[/i] but D&D, and has taken to naming characters things like Schweps Gingerale and El Anus, in a serious game (which makes me want to physically throttle the guy, except he has something like 270 pounds of fat trumping my 160 pound frame)) and even though I've been absolutely [i]frothing at the mouth[/i] to run a CthulhuTech campaign I've been sitting on ever since I got the setting book in December, no one will even [i]consider[/i] giving it a chance, simple because it isn't medieval fantasy or D&D of some sort. . **My recommendation for the maneuver names for Fighters and such is either use [i]real[/i] European and Japanese style names, which are already evocative enough if translated into English from their original German, Italian, or Japanese, or base the names on the sword forms fro,m the Wheel of Time; Cat Crosses the Courtyard, Sheathing the Sword, Parting there Silk! Stuff that actually [i]SOUNDS[/i] like it was named by actual swordsmen, and not by some game designer trying to come up with over-the-top cool sounding names. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that I REALLY, REALLY WANT to like Fourth Edition D&D, But I'm VERY AFRAID after reading some of the previews and some of the things the designers have said. Different rules for monsters and PCS? I though that was a BAD thing that was corrected in 3E, but not suddenly its a good thing again that 3E got wrong? I LIKED having the the same rules for both monsters and PCs. Everyone worked under the same laws of physics. There are some thigs you just cant d no matter how hard you try? I though we got rid of that has a horrible relic of 1e, and yet here it comes back again with the Trip "Power." And now, with all that said I truly hope that all my fears are proven completely invalid, and that I will be happy to play 4E when it comes out in a few months. I am very much lookimg forward to the release date and am planning a trip with my friend to the nearest gaming store (which is an hour away from where we live, unfortunately) so we can go over the books together and bounce our impressions off each other. Well, that's it; this is my last post on ENWorld, at least until 4E comes out; but judging by the atmosphere lately, it will probably be the last forever. I've been here since the beginning, but the bickering, sniping, bitching, vulgar attacks on others, and general vile meanness has been absolutely [i]DISGUSTING[/i] lately, and add in this influx of new, callous, rude, insulting, and downright VILE new generation of posters, and I can't take it anymore. My real life is a living Hell, and I used to come to ENWorld to relax and unwind among fellow geeks and gamers and looked to forward to seeing how everyone was doing and getting [i]jut a little relief from the living Hell of real life[/i]. Now, I come here and I get sick to my stomach and develope a migraine; it' even WORSE than real life around here anymore. And I can't take it. So goodbye, everyone. I want to leave while I can still remember the happy, fun, polite and cordial place ENWorld used to be like. Goodbye ENWorld. I will miss the happy place you used to be, and all the wonderful online friends I had made here.[/i] [/QUOTE]
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