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Message: <blockquote data-quote="merelycompetent" data-source="post: 3013978" data-attributes="member: 33830">For the groups I ran and played in, "skillful players" meant:1. Knowledge of the rules. Skillful players know the game rules and how to effectively apply them in both expected and unexpected ways. For example, I recall one incident where us PCs were badly losing a fight against a giant. The Paladin, who was having a miserable time trying to hit the giant due to a number of curses (long story), drank a potion of Fly, flew up to the very top of the cavern, then dropped like a full-plate armored rock onto the giant (a la Death From Above from BattleTech). The rules didn't cover things like this. The DM ruled that the giant was a large enough target (IIRC, the phrase "barn door" was used), and since the Paladin wasn't trying to hit him with a melee weapon, that he got to make a to hit roll without all the curse penalties. He hit. Damage inflicted was falling damage, save for half. The Paladin made his save. The frost giant didn't. Dead giant, badly hurt Paladin. Was it metagaming? The Paladin's player knew his character would probably survive the falling damage. It's no stretch that the Paladin, as a character, could figure this out, too.2. Knowledge of your character. Skillful players memoriz and labor long over the rules applying to their characters, especially spellcasters. Knowing the limits of your character's abilities, figuring out the gray areas of the rules, and applying them effectively, or in new and creative ways were the marks of a skillful player. I've posted previously some of the tricks and tactics we used, such as covering the dungeon entrance floor with a wall of stone after we found the first poisoned spike pit trap. Metagaming? Hardly. Our characters knew what their spells and class abilities could do. The characters merely applied them appropriately or creatively. Our first delve into Tomb of Horrors, our characters did their homework before ever setting foot near it and found out that the place was a "meatgrinder". So our characters reasonably prepared for it. It was the sort of adventure that we, the *players* loved - a trapfest, puzzle-abounding, deadly dungeon with death lurking under every flagstone. Some of my old gaming buddies loved Return to TOH for many of the same reasons.3. Cooperation with the DM. Skillful players work *with* the DM in those gray areas of the rules, when the rules fail to cover the situation adequately, and most especially when they don't agree with the DM or other players about an interpretation. In the Paladin vs. giant example, our DM and Paladin player conferred for all of a minute over what rules did (or didn't) apply. Could the DM have been stingy and not given a saving throw? Yes.  Could the DM have ruled that all the curse penalties still applied? Yes. Would it have made the Paladin's actions any less heroic? No. Would it have made the situation less entertaining? Heck no.4. Never take the setting for granted. Skillful players know that those level/encounter guidelines are just that: Guidelines. If your DM is considerate, that wandering encounter with the red dragon will be seeing it flying by overhead. A skillful player with a low level character knows that shooting an arrow at it is a bad idea. If your DM is of a harsher bent, and you run into the dragon on the ground, in the forest, nose-to-tooth, the skillful player with a low-level character will a) try to negotiate, b) offer a bribe, c) plead for mercy/honorable surrender, d) run like heck, and finally e) disbelieve illusion (to name a few of the options). In each case, the skillful player follows the idea that living to fight again another day (and kill the dragon and take all its stuff) is better than throwing your character's life away over foolish words. Even a Paladin understands that he can't smite the forces of evil anymore if he's dead.5. Always have fun with everyone. Skillful players always try to make the game more enjoyable, even when their characters fail.6. Always willing to learn a new trick or tactic. Pretty self-explanatory, IMO.Does this definition lean heavily on the wargaming aspects of xD&D? Yes. It's fundamental to the game: Kill monsters to gain XP. But it also includes all those aspects of role-playing that have grown into the game.In my opinion, player skill doesn't depend on the edition. I'm amazed at some of the combinations of rules that players on the various forums come up with: To illustrate problems with the rules/options, to get the most bang for the RPGing buck, or to create an interesting and still well-rounded character. And yes, a good DM will look at those postings and think, Not in my campaign; or, I can't wait for my players to run into that. It really depends on personal taste in the game. I think the designers of 3E (or 3.5E if you prefer) did a marvelous, intriguing job. Sure, they missed a few things here and there (accursed polymorphing rules have been a pain since before the original Greyhawk Supplement I), but those are what a DM is for.Likewise, I admire, and call those players "skillful", whose accounts I read in the story hours. In some cases, I can almost hear the player saying, "I know this is bad for my character, but it's what he'd *do*!" The same thing went on back in ~the old days~. Otherwise, that Paladin wouldn't have put himself to such risk.That's my take on it.</blockquote>

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