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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 4041858" data-attributes="member: 3146">I don't know that it starts breaking down. I had  a friend in high school who, back in the 2e days was fond of high level campaigns. I never really enjoyed them and the rules definitely did break down there. In 3.x, I've played one Living Greyhawk character to 18th level (and beyond now) another to 15th, and another to 13th, I've played Age of Worms to 14th level, and in a home campaign that IIRC started at 14th level and went to 18th before we put the campaign on hold and switched DMs.In none of those games have I felt like the game actually broke down. Now, I didn't particularly enjoy the high level home campaign for a number of reasons related to the DM, but primarily because it felt like he was making his world so bizzarely high powered that even at 18th levels our characters are still schlubs whose actions are not of consequence to the world. The plots and characters reactions to us were more appropriate to a mid-level game.What does happen at level 13 or so is two things:First, the accumulation of treasure really starts to skyrocket. At 11th level, my bizarre halfling holy warrior had a magic sword, a magic shield, a magic mithral breastplate, a hat of disguise, a minor vest of resistance, gauntlets of ogre power, and a +2 cloak of charisma. When put that way, it may sound like a decent amount (well, she was 11th level) but it really just amounts to her class gear (weapons/armor/shield), a toy (hat of disguise), and three miscellaneous items--gauntlets, vest, and cloak.At 13th level, her armor is now +4, she has anklets of translocation, counterstrike bracers, a ring of the four winds, a ring of thunderclaps, a belt of giant strength +4, an amulet of health +2, an ioun stone to boost her AC (and she's thinking about getting a second to boost her wisdom). I think there are a few more things out there too. It took her 11 levels to get basic gear plus four other items. Now, in the space of two levels, she has nearly doubled the amount of gear that she has and has gained enough items that give her options that I now find myself carefully rationing my swift and immediate actions.It is around 13th level that you start to have enough character wealth and find big enough hordes that magic items is no longer just about getting a good sword, but you end up with all sorts of other options too which can either conflict with each other or synergize.A second thing happens somewhere around 13th level. Spellcasters find several things:1. They have access to quite a number of long duration buff spells2. They no longer run out of spells in a typical adventuring day3. Their 2nd-4th level spell slots are no longer the bulk of their productive combat actions.Because of that, spells like hero's feast, greater magic weapon, magic vestment, barkskin, heroism, flame arrow, shield of faith, etc can become standard operating proceedure.If PCs decide to go that route, several things happen. Bookkeeping becomes more complex because your character now has a different set of attack rolls with heroism or greater magic weapon than without them and a dispel magic spell will often take several minutes to resolve. The more important thing, however, is that the power disparity between a party who works together before combat and one that does not grows dramatically. If one group of characters has +4 magic vestment on their armor and their shield, shield of faith, and barkskin up and the other doesn't, that's easily the difference between being AC 29 and AC 41. (Or at least that's the difference in my halfling's ordinary armor class and the armor class she had in the last module where her party included a druid and a cleric with a bead of karma). Likewise, the difference between a +22 attack and a +29 attack should not be underestimated. (Greater magic weapon often adds +3 to my halfling, hero's feast another 1, haste 1, and recitation 2). Buffed and unbuffed states make a difference before this level range, of course, but first, the difference isn't as large mathematically as to turn a likely hit into something that only hits if it threatens a critical.The third thing that happens around 13th level is that the around  that point in time, characters have made enough choices in their design and development that their innate power levels begin to diverge more sharply. At every level, there is a way to make a useless character and there are characters who are stronger at every level as well. However, at higher levels, the differences become more pronounced as strong characters tend to end up with multiple abilities that synergize together.With all of these changes in the game happening at once, there is a definite learning curve both for players and for DMs and it is somewhat more challenging to find encounters that will challenge different groups of PCs in the same way. It still happens. Age of Worms works pretty well so far. And Living Greyhawk generally manages a reasonable and interesting level of challenge. But the game definitely changes.</blockquote>

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