Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What was the big difference between 4e and "essentials"?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ancalagon" data-source="post: 7451541" data-attributes="member: 23"><p>Ok, so I have more time to answer this properly now. The tiers are strongly based on *versatility* (not variety, sorry about that) - the capacity for a character to deal with a wide array of problems. To see if a class is good, you must think about how they would do at these following challenges:</p><p></p><p>Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.</p><p></p><p>Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.</p><p></p><p>Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.</p><p></p><p>Of course, a fighter will help in situation 1 and 3... by fighting. He might have a skill or two that are useful outside of fighting too. But his capacity to help *pales* before the wizard. Outside the pretty obvious fireball slinging, she can do a host of things to help - she can use magic to scout ahead, or cast spells on scouts to make them more stealthy. She can use communication to coordinate or summon aid. Charm magic to bypass hostile guards. Summon allies. Cast walls of stone to reinforce city walls. Use elementals to change the course of a river. Cast protective magic on other party members to help them resist dragon breath, or dragon fear. Dimensional magic to bypass trap, free a captive or set up a flanking maneuver. etc etc etc etc.</p><p></p><p>These are all things a 3.X/PF wizard could do (or cleric, or druid, with some variation). The reason why the sorcerer was tier 2 instead of 1 is that his shorter spell known list made it harder for him to do all those things - only some of them. 5e also has some of that but it's been toned down a wee bit, esp by the concentration mechanism (and several spells have been outright nerfed). Also, fighters have a little bit more out of combat utility. Not a ton, but it helps!</p><p></p><p>The real power of a full caster is not in battle (although they are really good there too!) it's *shaping events* - changing the battle before it even occurs, and solving a host of problems. </p><p></p><p>So I know this is getting a bit off topic but... with this formal definition of "tiers" in mind, was the gap truly reduced?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ancalagon, post: 7451541, member: 23"] Ok, so I have more time to answer this properly now. The tiers are strongly based on *versatility* (not variety, sorry about that) - the capacity for a character to deal with a wide array of problems. To see if a class is good, you must think about how they would do at these following challenges: Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him. Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you. Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war. Of course, a fighter will help in situation 1 and 3... by fighting. He might have a skill or two that are useful outside of fighting too. But his capacity to help *pales* before the wizard. Outside the pretty obvious fireball slinging, she can do a host of things to help - she can use magic to scout ahead, or cast spells on scouts to make them more stealthy. She can use communication to coordinate or summon aid. Charm magic to bypass hostile guards. Summon allies. Cast walls of stone to reinforce city walls. Use elementals to change the course of a river. Cast protective magic on other party members to help them resist dragon breath, or dragon fear. Dimensional magic to bypass trap, free a captive or set up a flanking maneuver. etc etc etc etc. These are all things a 3.X/PF wizard could do (or cleric, or druid, with some variation). The reason why the sorcerer was tier 2 instead of 1 is that his shorter spell known list made it harder for him to do all those things - only some of them. 5e also has some of that but it's been toned down a wee bit, esp by the concentration mechanism (and several spells have been outright nerfed). Also, fighters have a little bit more out of combat utility. Not a ton, but it helps! The real power of a full caster is not in battle (although they are really good there too!) it's *shaping events* - changing the battle before it even occurs, and solving a host of problems. So I know this is getting a bit off topic but... with this formal definition of "tiers" in mind, was the gap truly reduced? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What was the big difference between 4e and "essentials"?
Top