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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HammerMan" data-source="post: 8460599" data-attributes="member: 84112">yes and no. even in 2e there were spells that had effects that did not have saves, and ones that had half for saves. You could still try to target worse saves. But you couldn't just count on a spell overriding HP. PCs/Monsters/NPC with high HP had almost auto saves for a reason.in 3e a wizard 'playing the table' and makeing even just good guesses about goo/bad saves could make a spell land 70%+ of the time... and could almost ignore spell ressitance (where magic resistance in 2e meant it was a fighter and theif job to bash the thing most times.).in 3.5 if a PC and and NPC(made like a PC) both had a 15,14,&13 to spread, and the PC was a fighter and the NPC was a wizard... the wizard puts the 15 in INT and is human so no mod.  the fighter puts the 15 in str the 14 in con and the 13 in dex (cause fighter)he is an elf variant that gets +2 dex +1 str (Don't know for sure there is one but i bet there was) so 16 15 14 physicals... going to start with +2 fort and +0 ref and will.  so to make a save vs a 1st level spell we have DC 13 with Fort +5 (needs and 8 or better) Ref +2 (needs 11 or better) and will (I didn't stat wis but lets be nice give him a +1) +1 needs a 12... add 12 levels to each... now we are in the endgame... 13th level. the fighter base is +8/+4/+4 and he got 3 +1 stat increases... all in con we will say (more hp and best chance to improve con save) he also got a ring of defense +2 in this time (+2 ac and saves unlike ring of prot that ws only +2 AC) he also has gloves of dex +2 and belt of giant str +4... pretty good for that level(also magic weapon and armor) fighter 13 now has str 20 Dex 17 Con 17... but he also has really cool feats so I am giving him Iron will +2 will saves since he still only has a +1 wis...  his saves are Fort +13 Ref +9 Will +7 wizard 13 now has a 20 int (I wont break down magic vs stat bump) and a single feat to enhance the save DC by 1... he can throw 6th level spells and the DC 22 then for lower levels it is 21,20,19,18,17... against a big 5th level save or suck (or worse save or die) the fighter has to roll Fort an 8 (not bad), Ref a 12 (wow not even 50/50 good thing most of these are sve for half damage not SoD) and Will 14 (yikes...35% chance...about 1/3 of the time he makes it)so at level 1 tasha laugh (1st level save or suck) the fighter needs to make a 12 to negate (45% chance) and that is the BIGGEST spell a wizard can throw.  at level 13 against the same tasha laugh (now the weakest spell) he needs a 4... great news, but if there is a 5th level SoD will save...(not looking but I think hold monster and dominate person both fall in here, maybe polymorph) that would be needing a 14... and that STILL IS NOT THE HIGHEST LEVEL SLOT...why did the fighter who took a feat, has a magic item to boost, and used to have the best saves in 2e now have a 1/3 pass rate against an equal level will save?even a monk who rolls well (starts with 16 dex 16 con 17 wis after race) takes all 3 save feats and has the best base saves... we will give him a belt of magnificent +4 (awesome at level 13) and say his +3 aall went wis from levels... has a 20dex 20con 24wis +8 base all save +2 feats to all saves and we will give +2 magic to all saves...Fort+17 Ref +17 Will +19... you know what that looks like?  in 2e a 1,2or 3 always failed a save   unless you where divine, and at level 13 with some magic help it was common for ffighters to have half of the saves at 4+ to make it...but the monk only got 4 feats (unless human or flaws) and he put 3 of them too defense saves to get there...</blockquote>

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