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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 8461643" data-attributes="member: 20564">Yes.&nbsp; And this has already been addressed.&nbsp; You responded to it.&nbsp; Why are you bringing it back up?&nbsp; To remind you, we already talked abotu how in AD&amp;D 2nd ed there was no caster component of saves.&nbsp; So to non-casters the saves feel a lot worse, adn to casters it finally felt like they could land spells with saves.&nbsp; This is a feature, not a bug.You had said that in AD&amp;D 2nd ed the mitigating point for no caster adjustment to saves was there were spells with half for saves and spells with no saves.&nbsp; I mentioned how 3.0 also had spells with half, and that 3.0 having any chance to save was better than no chance to save, since your friend was complaining about saves getting harder when this is actually getting a chance to save when there was none before.No, that's a fraction of what matters.&nbsp; The fact that caster level had no input to the saves was a bigger problem, and one that got resolved.&nbsp; The most powerful lich would be rebuffed the vast majority of the time casting against PCs, who had saves that were only based on their class level, and then improved by magic items.&nbsp; There was no counter - nothing based on the foe level, no magic items to make saves worse.You have a PC focus that is blinding you to the full picture.I never said that, nor do I have problems seeing it, so stop putting words in my mouth.&nbsp; That's a more systemetic issue, and does not impact that target-impact-only saves were a problem.&nbsp; D&amp;D 4e showed you can have saves where both the caster and the target have impact on the chance to succeed, and did so in a non LFQW way.&nbsp; Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Blue, post: 8461643, member: 20564"] Yes. And this has already been addressed. You responded to it. Why are you bringing it back up? To remind you, we already talked abotu how in AD&D 2nd ed there was no caster component of saves. So to non-casters the saves feel a lot worse, adn to casters it finally felt like they could land spells with saves. This is a feature, not a bug. You had said that in AD&D 2nd ed the mitigating point for no caster adjustment to saves was there were spells with half for saves and spells with no saves. I mentioned how 3.0 also had spells with half, and that 3.0 having any chance to save was better than no chance to save, since your friend was complaining about saves getting harder when this is actually getting a chance to save when there was none before. No, that's a fraction of what matters. The fact that caster level had no input to the saves was a bigger problem, and one that got resolved. The most powerful lich would be rebuffed the vast majority of the time casting against PCs, who had saves that were only based on their class level, and then improved by magic items. There was no counter - nothing based on the foe level, no magic items to make saves worse. You have a PC focus that is blinding you to the full picture. I never said that, nor do I have problems seeing it, so stop putting words in my mouth. That's a more systemetic issue, and does not impact that target-impact-only saves were a problem. D&D 4e showed you can have saves where both the caster and the target have impact on the chance to succeed, and did so in a non LFQW way. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. [/QUOTE]

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