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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 4121539" data-attributes="member: 704">Contrary to popular belief, Grappling did exist in 2nd edition.  It did go by a different name though.2nd Edition PHB, page 98.  Overbearing.- Normal attack roll- +4 or -4 to attacker for every level size difference- -2 to attacker for every leg beyond 2 that the defender has (4 legs == -4 to attacker)- If there are multiple attackers, use the weakest attackers attack roll, and add 1 for each attacker beyond the first- If the attack succeeds, the defender is pulled down.  A 2nd over bearing attack has the defender pinned.The 2nd edition Combat and Tactics book adds a more detailed grappling system.Comparing 2nd Edition Overbearing vs 3rd Edition Grapple, I make the following conclusions. - 2nd Edition Overbearing is quicker to resolve, only use one attack roll.  3rd Edition uses two (touch attack, then opposed roll).  3 if you count the AoO. - 3rd Edition Modifiers make a whole lot more sense.  Using 2nd Edition, a Giant has a harder time succeeding with an Overbearing Attack than he would if a nearby Kobold tried to help.Actually, the two systems are good examples of the benefits and flaws of each edition.2nd Edition has a whole lot of rules subsystems that do not intereact with one another, and they often use mechanics that do not make a whole lot of sense.  Why should a fighter with 9 Str have nearly as good a chance to succeed at Overbearing as one with 15 Str?  Why does someone with 18 Str have such a huge advantage over a fighter with 15 Str, but the 15 Str fighter has no advantage over the guy with 12 Str, given the same difference in scores?3rd Edition has a unified mechanic and subsystems that make sense and interact reasonably with other subsystems.  The drawback is that some things get over complicated in practice.  The difference between a 12 Str fighter and a 15 Str fighter is about the same as the difference between a 18 Str and a 15 Str fighter (example makes more sense if you call it at 12, 14, and 16).  Grapple uses elements of other subsystems (a touch attack, an opposed roll).  An Ogre being helped by a Kobold is going to have a better chance at winning a Grapple than the Ogre by himself (Flanking or Aid Another).  Provoking an AoO makes sense given the rules set.  And when you take it all into account, not only do you need to know your Grapple modifier, but you need to resolve an AoO, and make 3 or more dice rolls.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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