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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6853542" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Well, I did say "most" because there will always be people who jump ship, or like something without feeling any strong attachment to it.But, at least for me and those 4e fans I know who distinctly liked 4e, there are three major elements. First was the feeling that 5e's designers, whether intentionally or not, either ignored developments in 4e and stumbled blindly into (superficially-)similar things, or were aware of them but acted as though they'd never existed (Monte Cook's "a thing I like to call passive perception" being a key example, but Healing Surges vs. Hit Dice are another). Second, 4e was committed to real and systemic balance between all fundamental options--being an explicitly magic character did not, could not make you dramatically more flexible or powerful than being a non-magic-using character--which 5e more or less abandoned, despite some efforts to rein in caster power. Third, some of the significant developments in 4e were seen as getting short shrift in 5e; although the Warlord is the poster child there, other things got included but in a backhanded way (the whole "exotic races" thing, which we had a nice, contentious thread about recently) or in a state that felt impoverished (e.g. the Dragonborn, or the Oath of Vengeance being "Avengers" and Oath of the Ancients being "Wardens"). There are some other, more muddy things (the lateness of the "ghoul save surprise" and lingering wonkiness of saves; the apparent vaporware nature of the Tactical Combat Module), but those three seem the key problems, based on my personal interactions with 4e fans, the majority of whom were dissatisfied with 5e.Edit:And, unless somebody really, really needs me to explain things beyond that? I'm not really interested in continuing that discussion further. This is a thread about 5e and its future legacy. Discussions of 4e fans' responses to 5e *at least* belong in another thread, if not another subforum entirely.</blockquote>

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