Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6854371" data-attributes="member: 6790260">But this, too, is presuming a positive spin on what 5e has done. This need not remain positive over time. In language as non-judgmental (for good or for ill) as I can put it, given that I am very critical of this feature (or "feature" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />): 5e hangs everything on the DM's shoulders--everything.For those unwilling, uninterested, or unable to shoulder that, 5e will never work "right" for them. That is, they'll never get it to "sing," if that makes sense. It may be functional, but it won't be brilliant. That is the secret dark side of DM empowerment. Everyone knows what bad things DM entitlement will do--that's the "obvious" dark side that gets dismissive answers like "don't play with those people, duh!" Just like everyone could see from a mile away the problems of a game that gave players unrealistic or unfair expectations of what they'd receive, which is usually what I think people mean when they talk about "player entitlement." But I don't think anybody, including Monte Cook, saw the secret dark side of player empowerment, which was (as Tony noted in another post) the influence gap between players who exploited every avenue available and players who just wanted to relax and do an enjoyable thing with friends.Nowadays, I think most people would agree that one of 3.x's greatest flaws was punishing that second group, the players who just wanted to relax, who didn't WANT to put in the deep thought and give up the things that interested them for the things that would make them powerful. But 5e absolutely does, sometimes, do the exact same thing on the other side of the screen: "punishing" those DMs who don't want to maintain constant vigilance, who don't want to have to kitbash the thing into shape every time they boot it up fresh, who just want a system they can use as-is with few to no modifications and get few to no unexpected (edit: that is, unpleasant) surprises.If 5e remains a fond memory? People will remember its expectations of DMs in a positive light: "empowerment." If the general perception of it sours with time? People will remember its expectations of DMs in a negative light: "demanding."And I'm just about 95% sure that there isn't a single quality of 5e that can be held up as a wonderful, positive legacy that doesn't have a "dark side" to it--in exactly the same way that you can say that of 4e. For me as a 4e fan, its balance was wonderful, liberating: I could do almost whatever I wanted and KNOW that I'd never get left behind, that I'd never be a burden, that I'd make a REAL and MEANINGFUL contribution to whatever the party wanted to do. For critics, that exact same balance was a painful constraint (though, I'll be honest, I've never really understood that position; people hold it, but I've never heard it explained in a way that didn't boil down to "I want to be able to suck at things and/or reduce my group's ability to succeed" which...boggles my mind.)Alternatively, @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=94143" target="_blank">Shasarak</a> could be saying that there is a gap between what the words mean as an abstract statement, and what the words mean as marketing doublespeak. That is, the term is really a claim rather than a description, or more like a political buzzword, even a dogwhistle, something said to make customers think it means one thing (an edition that will never be replaced) when, internally, it means some other thing (an edition we want people to buy as though it will never be replaced). And if 5e succeeds in spooling out its existence for, say, 2-3 times longer than 3e, 3.5e, or 4e? People might take those claims completely seriously...right up until 6e is announced.</blockquote>

Verification