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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8765238" data-attributes="member: 4937">Someone mentioned that it's not really possible to uphold Sparta as a good aligned culture.&nbsp; Despite having a few admirable aspects, this was among other things this is a culture that initiated it's young men by having them murder a slave.&nbsp; This is culture where &quot;Often Lawful Evil&quot; would be a probably valid descriptor.&nbsp; The other Greek city states admired Sparta for its Lawfulness.&nbsp; It's questionable whether they had even a notion we would describe as goodness considering Zeus was considered something of an ideal man.I'm surprised no one has challenged me on Klingons.&nbsp;&nbsp; We've seen examples of good and honorable Klingons, but as a culture it's questionable that the Klingons are good guys and it very much feels like there is a lot of effort to try to redeem the Klingons that ultimately feels to me like Federation propaganda and naivety.&nbsp; I'd be happy with a &quot;Often Chaotic Evil&quot; tag on Klingons.And then there is the comparison to Neanderthals.&nbsp; As far as we can tell, humanity were the orcs in that situation.&nbsp; We out bred them.&nbsp; It's not out of the question that killed them and ate them.&nbsp; (Ok, it's possible we are cannibalistic dark elves by comparison, but point still stands.)&nbsp; We have a bit of Neanderthal blood in our veins, but knowing humanity that probably wasn't always what we'd call consensual.&nbsp;&nbsp; So yeah, it isn't necessarily the case that making orcs like people would make them good guys.&nbsp; I mean there is a reason the game has never declared humans &quot;Often Good&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8765238, member: 4937"] Someone mentioned that it's not really possible to uphold Sparta as a good aligned culture. Despite having a few admirable aspects, this was among other things this is a culture that initiated it's young men by having them murder a slave. This is culture where "Often Lawful Evil" would be a probably valid descriptor. The other Greek city states admired Sparta for its Lawfulness. It's questionable whether they had even a notion we would describe as goodness considering Zeus was considered something of an ideal man. I'm surprised no one has challenged me on Klingons. We've seen examples of good and honorable Klingons, but as a culture it's questionable that the Klingons are good guys and it very much feels like there is a lot of effort to try to redeem the Klingons that ultimately feels to me like Federation propaganda and naivety. I'd be happy with a "Often Chaotic Evil" tag on Klingons. And then there is the comparison to Neanderthals. As far as we can tell, humanity were the orcs in that situation. We out bred them. It's not out of the question that killed them and ate them. (Ok, it's possible we are cannibalistic dark elves by comparison, but point still stands.) We have a bit of Neanderthal blood in our veins, but knowing humanity that probably wasn't always what we'd call consensual. So yeah, it isn't necessarily the case that making orcs like people would make them good guys. I mean there is a reason the game has never declared humans "Often Good". [/QUOTE]

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