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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Goblyns Hoard" data-source="post: 2145116" data-attributes="member: 19970">Wow - serendipity or what!Sorry I'll explainLast night on BBC2 there was a program called "We Have Ways of Making You Talk".  It was quite disturbing but very interesting.  A documentary on the history of the use of torture by various organisations since the Algerian struggle for independence.  It included interviews with French military in Algeria, British police/intelligence services in Northern Ireland, Chinese/Russian/Korean counterintelligence/propaganda in North Korea, US military and CIA in Vietnam and Iraq, Argentinian Police, South African death squads, and Israel's Shin Bet.  If it comes to a service near you I highly recommend it.  There was also coverage of tests run by Yale to see how easily someone would undertake torture if ordered to do so (an experiment in administering what they thought were electric shocks to another volunteer) and the rapidly halted experiments in politics of power (TV show on guards and prisoners) that took place in the US.**Interesting point - a similar experiment in the UK a couple of years back had disturbingly similar results in terms of power abuse and mental breakdown and was also halted prematurelyThe conclusion of EVERY ONE of the torturers that worked for a regime that has not yet been discredited (i.e. the French, British, American and Israeli) was that torture was JUSTIFIABLE and SMART and should not be apologized for.  They justified it in terms of the need for information to save their own lives, those of their military/intelligence comrades and those of other innocents that they were protecting (French, British, South Vietnamese, Israeli citizens).  Many of the torturers from other regimes found it harder to justify because they have since come to the conclusion that they were supporting a regime or practice that could not be justified, and so the torture could not be justified.In other words as long as you're fighting for what is right and good then the ends justify the means (my summary of the arguments presented... still not sure whether or not I actually agree)The Vietnam VET interviewed said that this was rife THROUGHOUT Vietnam (not commenting on the actions of your buddy - just what the vet said on the show - and given he was admitting to horrific actions on his own part, both physical and mental, it didn't sound like he was trying to evade the truth).  He said that when he was the new guy in country he was shocked when his CO started prodding a suspected VC's still open wounds with his pen in order to get him to talk, but that as no one else protested neither did he.  He went on from merely witnessing to being actively involved, and eventually developing his own techniques for breaking prisoners.  And to this day he still considers himself a 'good guy' who was doing 'the right thing' in order to shorten the war and ultimately save lives.As an aside the program also concluded that any regime that has made widespread use of torture in the past has gone on to either collapse or to realise that it only fosters more problems by converting more of your victims against you, convincing them that you are truly evil... OK venturing too far into the politics going to stop there.The really interesting aspect was how easy it was for an innocent individual to be convinced of the need to inflict what he thought was a dangerous, and potentially lethal electric shock to another volunteer - just by telling him that he was devoid of all responsibility and that Yale was responsible.  When asked about it afterwards the guy's justification for doing it was scarily similar to the "I was just following orders" argument that failed to convince in the Nurnburg trials.The overall conclusion I have is that whilst clearly unpleasant this is the type of thing that most people will find a way to justify - scarily close to all of us would resort to this (particularly according to the guy that was the subject of the Yale experiments).  If you're running a morally grey area game then that is the type of thing that will come up.  If your characters were Exalted in any way then yes they should lose that status, but those that aren't I wouldn't have punished.  The aspiring Paladin should find his quest that much harder now, but should only need to atone if he was going to continue the quest to become a Paladin.  I don't think I would have docked the xp... I like to think I would have just taken note of the actions and considered it in light of further actions.  Of course if this behaviour became something they began to use regularly or look forward to then it's a very different matter, and alignment changes should need to be considered.  And in game the fact should have got back to the Zhents - making them that much more interested in the PCs.  And of course if they were ever captured by the Zhents then the treatment should have NO difference, and those that don't talk are rolling up new PCs (maybe even those that do... these are the Zhents afterall).  It would also have been fitting for rumours of these actions to eventually make it back to the PCs allies... giving them real concern about the actions of the party and whether or not they can continue to associate with them (particularly if they are of Exalted status).On the moral compass of D&D there is real good and real evil - and that (IMO) is not the case in the real world  (oh dear venturing near religion now as well  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh    :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" /> ).  So in the D&D world there should be those that will never undertake this sort of thing - the Exalted.  Then there are those that are fighting the good fight but are willing to be ruthless to save innocent lives - that's what your PCs did.  It doesn't stop them from being good or fighting the good fight - it means they've forever cut themselves off from being Exalted.  If you're running a Superman type game then your decision was the right one... if you're running Batman (and it sounds to me like you were) then the good guys are that bit less shining white, and their actions will reflect that.Edit - A couple of posters have said that torture was not involved - I disagree completely.  That young soldier was tortured in being forced to watch his comrades being butchered and knowing that he was next.  Torture is NOT just physical</blockquote>

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