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Message: <blockquote data-quote="John Morrow" data-source="post: 2146729" data-attributes="member: 27012">It's not a problem when it's difficult.  It's a problem when it's impossible.  When the situation demands (A) XOR (B), you cannot have (A) AND (B). We go through the process of a trial because that's how we try to guarantee justice in an imperfect world without paladins and alignments and spells that can detect the truth.  That process is designed to protect the innocent from injustices, not to let the guilty go free.  The purpose of the double jeopardy prohibition is not to let the guilty walk free but to prevent the innocent from being persecuted by an endless series of trials for the same crime.  The purpose of the provision against self-incrimination is not to help the guilty get away with crimes but to prevent the innocent from being tortured to get false confessions.  All of those were a reaction to past abuses.Remember that the SRD says, "A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."  If you don't need the process to insure that the innocent are not wrongly punished (as you do in the real world), then what's the point of the process?  And if the paladin puts means before ends, then aren't they being Lawful first and Good second, especially if the process lets the guilty go free to kill again, like it does in the real world?I've lived in Japan.  Please don't tell me that I don't understand the Lawful mindset.  Take a good look at how the justice system works in Japan.  In particular, note the confession rate that police get out of criminals, the percentage of cases that actually go to trial, the way they carry out executions, etc.  Lawful?  Yup.  Good?  Well, I'll leave that up to you to decide. I also fully understand arguments about the merits of having and following tradition.  But why would a tradition that resembles the American justice system develop in a quasi-Medieval fantasy setting with a very different history and social context?  I can tell you what purpose various provisions serve in the American justice system and why they are there, from the Miranda Rights and prohibition against double jeopardy to evidence exclusion and the need for warrants.  Heck, not putting toops in private houses warrants it's own amendment because it was an important issue at the time in context.  But do those provisions make any sense in a quasi-Medieval setting with kings, reliable lie detection magic, scrying, holy warriors, alignments, etc.?I'd argue that the allies held those trials for the benefit of themselves and their audience, not their prisoners.  As such, I don't think it was a matter of Good such much as a matter of pragmatism and self-justification.  And contrast the trials in Europe with those in Japan, as well the various criminals let go in both places in exchange for their secrets and scientific knowledge.  Lawful Neutral?  Perhaps.  Simply True Neutral?  Possibly.  And again go back to the line, "A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."Eh.  I'm still not persuaded.  What difference does it make if he's in the middle of a swamp or in the courtyard of the kings palace after a trial?  How does that change the moral calculus, particularly with respect to Good and Evil, of lopping off his head with his hands tied behind his back if he's guilty in either case?  How many executions are performed on people who aren't bound or otherwise helpless?  If killing someone who is bound or helpless is Evil, then all such executions are Evil.  That's a legitimate position to take but hardly the only legitimate position to take.At worst, by the SRD, it was Neutral which, again going to the SRD, only demands "compunctions against killing the innocent" and assumes that they "lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others."  That seems to fit to me.  The presence of the Neutral alignment in D&D guarantees that D&D is not simply black and white but, at a minimum, black, white, and 50% gray.  And I personally think that's preferable to a binary choice.</blockquote>

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