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<blockquote data-quote="Rel" data-source="post: 2150161" data-attributes="member: 99">Let me add an addendum that just occurred to me to my post above:It could be that you're misunderstanding my position to mean that not only would a party of PC's be justified in such actions but that these actions would constitute &quot;justice&quot; in a larger society.&nbsp; I feel no need to contend that because I find the question moot.Most certainly there could be (and indeed are in most games) societies where &quot;torture for fun&quot; is an accepted practice.&nbsp; But these are Evil societies with little real idea or care for the concept of &quot;justice&quot; anyway.In a &quot;good&quot; or &quot;just&quot; society as presented in D&amp;D, if they were confronted with the situation described above (the &quot;Fanatic Captive&quot; scenario I'll call it) then there are dozens upon dozens of ways of resolving it without resorting to the ugly and unreliable method of torture.&nbsp; Scrying, mind reading, Zone of Truth, simply executing the captive expediently and Speaking With Dead, not to mention the varieties of Augury and Divine Communion available to the Cleric types are all probably available in a civilization of any size to speak of.&nbsp; It would seem vanishingly rare to have to resort to the brutal inefficiency of torture.&nbsp; And thus it would probably not even be considered as an option, not because doing so would be unjust but simply because it would not be necessary.Now it could also be that such &quot;Fanatic Captives&quot; would be a rare bird too.&nbsp; If history has shown that if you don't give up the info they want then they'll just kill you and Speak With Dead, winding up with it anyway, then there's no point (unless you're into the whole &quot;death before dishonor&quot; kind of thing) in witholding the information in the first place.&nbsp; If such magic is commonplace then it is silly for an NPC to pull the whole &quot;Name, Rank and Serial Number&quot; deal when confronted by a group obviously armed with a level of magic typically sufficient to pry loose your secrets with ease.&nbsp; Better to cooperate and hope for mercy.&nbsp; If you're alive then at least you have some hope of thwarting your captors later.So here's a question:&nbsp; If the GM confronts an obviously mid-level party with a &quot;Fanatic Captive&quot; who refuses to talk on the assumption that the PC's don't have access to any of the dozens of ways of getting the info they want magically, is he metagaming against the players for the sake of presenting a moral dilemma?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Rel, post: 2150161, member: 99"] Let me add an addendum that just occurred to me to my post above: It could be that you're misunderstanding my position to mean that not only would a party of PC's be justified in such actions but that these actions would constitute "justice" in a larger society. I feel no need to contend that because I find the question moot. Most certainly there could be (and indeed are in most games) societies where "torture for fun" is an accepted practice. But these are Evil societies with little real idea or care for the concept of "justice" anyway. In a "good" or "just" society as presented in D&D, if they were confronted with the situation described above (the "Fanatic Captive" scenario I'll call it) then there are dozens upon dozens of ways of resolving it without resorting to the ugly and unreliable method of torture. Scrying, mind reading, Zone of Truth, simply executing the captive expediently and Speaking With Dead, not to mention the varieties of Augury and Divine Communion available to the Cleric types are all probably available in a civilization of any size to speak of. It would seem vanishingly rare to have to resort to the brutal inefficiency of torture. And thus it would probably not even be considered as an option, not because doing so would be unjust but simply because it would not be necessary. Now it could also be that such "Fanatic Captives" would be a rare bird too. If history has shown that if you don't give up the info they want then they'll just kill you and Speak With Dead, winding up with it anyway, then there's no point (unless you're into the whole "death before dishonor" kind of thing) in witholding the information in the first place. If such magic is commonplace then it is silly for an NPC to pull the whole "Name, Rank and Serial Number" deal when confronted by a group obviously armed with a level of magic typically sufficient to pry loose your secrets with ease. Better to cooperate and hope for mercy. If you're alive then at least you have some hope of thwarting your captors later. So here's a question: If the GM confronts an obviously mid-level party with a "Fanatic Captive" who refuses to talk on the assumption that the PC's don't have access to any of the dozens of ways of getting the info they want magically, is he metagaming against the players for the sake of presenting a moral dilemma? [/QUOTE]

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