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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7597029" data-attributes="member: 996">Every edition has loosened restrictions on magic relative to the preceding one.&nbsp; It's not innately a bad thing, if the power of magic is correspondingly reigned in, as well, something only 4e got close to right.&nbsp; 4e greatly reduced the restrictions on magic relative to 3.5, but also vastly decreased the number &amp; power of spell resources a caster got.&nbsp; 5e /further/ (though there wasn't much further to go) reduced casting restrictions, relative to 4e, but greatly increased the power &amp; quantity of available spellcasting resources.&nbsp; &nbsp;It's funny how much people harp on cantrips.&nbsp; Cantrips are pretty minor, they let a caster continue to look like a caster when he's not using spell slots.&nbsp; We're just /so/ conditioned from the traditional game that casting must be a limited resource.&nbsp; ::sigh::&nbsp;The buffing game as it existed in d20 was pretty broken, but it'd've completely shattered BA, so, one way or another, it had to be shut down. Not to 'balance' casters, but to enable the BA design goal.It's refreshing when someone arguing for caster superiority just admits it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />But it's tangential to the point I was responding to, which had to do with fighters &amp; rogues (neither of which had ever cast spells prior to 5e, but even so, in 5e, that casting isn't relevant):&nbsp; &nbsp;There is no &quot;finally&quot;:&nbsp; 3.x went there, already, buffing up the offense of Rogues (even if it was against a backdrop of Tier 1 casters completely overshadowing both).&nbsp; 4e balanced fighters as a defensive 'Defender Role' class vs Rogues as offensive 'Strikers' quite neatly, and balanced them with casters, as well.&nbsp; So it's been done in &quot;D&amp;Dish&quot; games, already.Again, you're crediting(?) 5e with something that had long since been done.&nbsp; In this case - casters dominating play while they have spells available, and fighters dishing out big damage 24/7, it goes all the way back to AD&amp;D.&nbsp; And it was rarely actually delivered.&nbsp; Instead, you'd tend to get 5MWDs.&nbsp;WotC is /very/ happy with what they've done with 5e - they've tapped back into the mainstream awareness D&amp;D had back in the fad years, something that D&amp;D's IP holders had only been trying to do for 40 years - they're not going to do anything to jinx that for a long while.Paizo, OTOH, has that odd tendency to listen to their fans.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7597029, member: 996"] Every edition has loosened restrictions on magic relative to the preceding one. It's not innately a bad thing, if the power of magic is correspondingly reigned in, as well, something only 4e got close to right. 4e greatly reduced the restrictions on magic relative to 3.5, but also vastly decreased the number & power of spell resources a caster got. 5e /further/ (though there wasn't much further to go) reduced casting restrictions, relative to 4e, but greatly increased the power & quantity of available spellcasting resources. It's funny how much people harp on cantrips. Cantrips are pretty minor, they let a caster continue to look like a caster when he's not using spell slots. We're just /so/ conditioned from the traditional game that casting must be a limited resource. ::sigh:: The buffing game as it existed in d20 was pretty broken, but it'd've completely shattered BA, so, one way or another, it had to be shut down. Not to 'balance' casters, but to enable the BA design goal. It's refreshing when someone arguing for caster superiority just admits it. ;) But it's tangential to the point I was responding to, which had to do with fighters & rogues (neither of which had ever cast spells prior to 5e, but even so, in 5e, that casting isn't relevant): There is no "finally": 3.x went there, already, buffing up the offense of Rogues (even if it was against a backdrop of Tier 1 casters completely overshadowing both). 4e balanced fighters as a defensive 'Defender Role' class vs Rogues as offensive 'Strikers' quite neatly, and balanced them with casters, as well. So it's been done in "D&Dish" games, already. Again, you're crediting(?) 5e with something that had long since been done. In this case - casters dominating play while they have spells available, and fighters dishing out big damage 24/7, it goes all the way back to AD&D. And it was rarely actually delivered. Instead, you'd tend to get 5MWDs. WotC is /very/ happy with what they've done with 5e - they've tapped back into the mainstream awareness D&D had back in the fad years, something that D&D's IP holders had only been trying to do for 40 years - they're not going to do anything to jinx that for a long while. Paizo, OTOH, has that odd tendency to listen to their fans. [/QUOTE]

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