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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 6084578" data-attributes="member: 19675">Such conclusions you jump to, Hussar, and based on some faulty assumptions.1) Entangle's range is 400' + 40' per level vs the Harpies' Captivating song has a range of 300': they got caught in the Entangle, then the party- except for the bowman &amp; the druid- immediately closed on them.2) Yes, the Harpies improbably failed their Ref saves.&nbsp; However, after those initial failures, they don't get more Ref saves, they have to make D20 Str or Escape Artist saves. Harpies are neither strong nor do they have ranks in Escape Artist, plus, since they were entangled, they also had a -4 Dex penalty.3) Yes, the party improbably made their saves against the Harpies' Caprivating Song.&nbsp; OTOH, with equal improbability, the party repeatedly failed to hit creatures with ACs somewhere around 10, and when we did hit, did sub-average damage.&nbsp; With merely average hits &amp; damage, the bowman should have finished off one harpy and nearly killed a second one by himself...before the expiration of the first Entangle spell.&nbsp; Flip half of the party saves and attack rolls, and a couple of party members get captivated and approach the Harpies*, but the Harpies are dead by the middle of the second Entangle spell.There were lots of improbabilities, but they occurred on both sides of the conflict.&nbsp; The nature of the ones on the harpies' side of the equation made the DM pissed off.&nbsp; We, OTOH, burned 3 spells, 20 arrows and 20 sling stones in a single encounter.&nbsp; That's one spell and 6.67 arrows and sling bullets per harpy, in addition to an uncounted number of melee strikes and thrown rocks.It boils down to this: dice &quot;wierds&quot; the in game effects.* remember, Captivating Song doesn't make the victims fight for the Harpies, just approach them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dannyalcatraz, post: 6084578, member: 19675"] Such conclusions you jump to, Hussar, and based on some faulty assumptions. 1) Entangle's range is 400' + 40' per level vs the Harpies' Captivating song has a range of 300': they got caught in the Entangle, then the party- except for the bowman & the druid- immediately closed on [I]them[/I]. 2) Yes, the Harpies improbably failed their Ref saves. However, after those initial failures, they don't get more Ref saves, they have to make D20 Str or Escape Artist saves. Harpies are neither strong nor do they have ranks in Escape Artist, plus, since they were entangled, they also had a -4 Dex penalty. 3) Yes, the party improbably made their saves against the Harpies' Caprivating Song. OTOH, with [I]equal[/I] improbability, the party repeatedly failed to hit creatures with ACs somewhere around 10, and when we did hit, did sub-average damage. With merely [I]average[/I] hits & damage, the bowman should have finished off one harpy and nearly killed a second one [I]by himself[/I]...before the expiration of the first Entangle spell. Flip [B]half[/B] of the party saves and attack rolls, and a couple of party members get captivated and approach the Harpies*, but the Harpies are dead by the middle of the second Entangle spell. There were lots of improbabilities, but they occurred on both sides of the conflict. The nature of the ones on the harpies' side of the equation made the DM pissed off. We, OTOH, burned 3 spells, 20 arrows and 20 sling stones in a single encounter. That's one spell and 6.67 arrows and sling bullets per harpy, in addition to an uncounted number of melee strikes and thrown rocks. It boils down to this: dice "wierds" the in game effects. * remember, Captivating Song doesn't make the victims fight for the Harpies, just approach them. [/QUOTE]

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