What's really at stake in the Edition Wars

[DaveyJones]

You must go to funny restaurants none of the ones around here let me order anything but what they decide to put on the menu (and they do indeed change them periodically... not to mention changing managers and recipes).

you need to get to know the chef, owner, and waitstaff better.

the restaurants i frequent often have dishes not on the menu for their regular customers.

 

[ExploderWizard]

What, now a restaurant now has to never take a dish off the menu, ever? Does that sound reasonable to you?

They certainly can and it sounds perfectly reasonable.

Can changing the dish completely but leaving it on the menu under the old name while preventing the old dish from being prepared by another restaurant also be seen as being just as reasonable?

To some there is no apparent difference between the two.

 

[Hussar]

if the chinese restaurant changed and suddenly became italian i wouldn't expect to find my favorite egg roll there anymore. but if it is still claiming to be chinese. they had better provide the dim sum i have come to enjoy if they want my business.((Bold mine))

Ok, fair enough. So, if they change the menu and you don't like it, do you feel personally attacked? Do you feel that they are singling you out specifically to deny you what you want? Or, do you just shrug your shoulders, grumble a bit, and go to a different restaurant?

I think a number of people took the changes very, very personally. Whether it was the marketing (I see Cloud Watching has been misquoted yet again, what' this now? Three years later?), or a couple of lines in some book, or whatever, people took the changes, not to mean that they were simply doing something that the person didn't like, but that the changes were somehow an attack on their way of enjoying the hobby.

It wasn't just that the game changed, it was that the game change TO SPITE ME! seemed a response I saw a number of times.

But, back to the OP. What is at stake? Well, I dunno, really. A lot of it for me is just rehash of criticisms of 3e, rebranded and sporting a funny moustache. I don't see 4e is as this huge, unbridgeable gap between editions. I really don't. I see it as the bastard lovechild of 3e mechanics and Basic/Expert D&D. But, then, for me, the "shared world" thing was never very important. Ejecting most of that stuff does not bother me in the least. ((Although, I can see why it would annoy people.))

Thinking about it, I think I'd go with Cadfan for the most part. I engage in the Edition War type threads because I see claims that I think are factually innaccurate. Until last month, I didn't even play 4e, so, I really had no horse in the race. But, seeing people repeat, frequently, things I believed to be pretty innaccurate just makes me want to respond.

I guess it's 99% this:

 

[Hussar]

They certainly can and it sounds perfectly reasonable.

Can changing the dish completely but leaving it on the menu under the old name while preventing the old dish from being prepared by another restaurant also be seen as being just as reasonable?

To some there is no apparent difference between the two.

EW, you might want to adjust a bit, you're showing your presumptions.

Did the dish change completely? It did for you, and I totally respect and get that. But, it didn't for everyone. There's a fair number of people for whom 4e is not a "totally new dish". It's a new dish, it's got different whatevers, but, it's still D&D.

Your point is only valid if you could objectively show that 4e D&D is not really D&D. You can certainly prove it to yourself, but, there is no objective standard here.

For some, it's the same dish, just prepared differently, in the same way that Basic/Expert D&D, and 2e D&D with Skills and Powers, and 3e D&D using Tome of Battle and Unearthed Arcana are all still D&D. For some people, of course.

So, if you come from that perspective, then, yes, it is perfectly valid to have the item on the menu under the old name.

Not everyone shares your definition of D&D.

 

[Celtavian]

I could call out a few comments here, but I just do not see this one in particular.

How does 4E make your books of whatever edition useless? Did they spontaneously combust? Are they rancid now that the use-by date has passed?

Why are you questioning someone's reason? It comes down I like to be able to buy new books from the company that produces it. I cannot do that if they are no longer producing a game I like to play. I like new product.

It comes down to I like new product and nothing more. Do you have a problem understanding that?

What part of played every edition up to now did you not read? It had nothing to do with "need". No game has anything to do with "need". It has to do with want. I've played this game for 25 years and I like to purchase my books from the main company.

But the game moved away from anything I like for the first time. And I wont' get updated books. It's a little disappointing because I looked forward to updated books. Now I look forward to Paizo's updated books.

Now if your group decided to go the new way and you did not, then I can see how the books are not as useful as they once were, but that is not really WOTC's fault. It is a group-level thing.

Do you understand this thread is based on personal opinion, not on blaming WotC?

What if I had not liked 3E? I would have been in the same boat 10 years ago?

This has nothing to do with "blaming WotC". I'm sure there were players that hated 3E and never touched it. I'm sure there were players that didn't like 2E. It just so happens that I chose to leave at 4E.

This is all personal. Which is what I'm assuming this thread is about.

There really is a lot of hyperbole in this thread thus far. A whole lot.

Alot of hyperbole? For something based on personal feeling? I don't think that is possible.

The game made a radical change. If you don't like it, you're driven out of the game. No new product for you.

If you do, you happily continue along as D&D player.

It's how it works. Not like that is arguable, it's a simple statement of truth.

WotC said "Here's the game we're giving you. We're not giving you any new product or fixes for any older ediitions including 3E. Join us or get the hell out. Your choice".

When you've been playing D&D as long as I have, you don't much care for that choice when you dislike the game they're giving you and it looks nothing like past versions of D&D.

Wake up to what this thread is about. It's not about blaming WotC. It's about expressing what you felt your stake in the game was on a personal level. It becomes a lot higher the longer you play it.

If you are interested in questioning my statement about 4E not being built on a literary model, take it to another thread or pms. It will side track the thread.

 

[Celtavian]

EW, you might want to adjust a bit, you're showing your presumptions.

Did the dish change completely? It did for you, and I totally respect and get that. But, it didn't for everyone. There's a fair number of people for whom 4e is not a "totally new dish". It's a new dish, it's got different whatevers, but, it's still D&D.

Your point is only valid if you could objectively show that 4e D&D is not really D&D. You can certainly prove it to yourself, but, there is no objective standard here.

Impossible to prove. D&D is owned by a company and it decides what D&D will be, not any of the players. The company has sole control over the name.

For some, it's the same dish, just prepared differently, in the same way that Basic/Expert D&D, and 2e D&D with Skills and Powers, and 3e D&D using Tome of Battle and Unearthed Arcana are all still D&D. For some people, of course.

So, if you come from that perspective, then, yes, it is perfectly valid to have the item on the menu under the old name.

Not everyone shares your definition of D&D.

True enough. I'm assuming most went with 4E or WotC would not be continuing to put out product at the rate they are. So WotC could care less what the anti-4E splinter faction thinks.

 

[ExploderWizard]

EW, you might want to adjust a bit, you're showing your presumptions.

Did the dish change completely? It did for you, and I totally respect and get that. But, it didn't for everyone. There's a fair number of people for whom 4e is not a "totally new dish". It's a new dish, it's got different whatevers, but, it's still D&D.

Your point is only valid if you could objectively show that 4e D&D is not really D&D. You can certainly prove it to yourself, but, there is no objective standard here.

For some, it's the same dish, just prepared differently, in the same way that Basic/Expert D&D, and 2e D&D with Skills and Powers, and 3e D&D using Tome of Battle and Unearthed Arcana are all still D&D. For some people, of course.

So, if you come from that perspective, then, yes, it is perfectly valid to have the item on the menu under the old name.

Not everyone shares your definition of D&D.

Well at least we have answered the age old question: What's in a name?

Apparently everything.

 

[DaveyJones]

It wasn't just that the game changed, it was that the game change TO SPITE ME! seemed a response I saw a number of times.

you didn't see that response from me.

 

[Hussar]

Impossible to prove. D&D is owned by a company and it decides what D&D will be, not any of the players. The company has sole control over the name.



True enough. I'm assuming most went with 4E or WotC would not be continuing to put out product at the rate they are. So WotC could care less what the anti-4E splinter faction thinks.

I agree, it's impossible to prove. Which makes it somewhat problematic to state it as a fact. Now, again, with the lack of nuance on the Internet, it's not a difficult thing to imagine that people don't filter in an "IMO" at the beginning of every statement.

Well at least we have answered the age old question: What's in a name?

Apparently everything.

For some. Then again, if I told you that you were not playing a "real" game of D&D, would you simply ignore it? Probably, that's the best answer, but, imagine that every single day that you come on the forums, someone tells you that you are not playing D&D. That the game that you are playing isn't really D&D, despite what it says on the cover.

That was the first couple of years of 3e at PlanetAD&D.

Now, fast forward a few years and imagine that you get told, every time you turn around, that you are not playing D&D again because the game you prefer isn't really D&D.

I think it's pretty natural that people might get a tad testy after a while.

you didn't see that response from me.

Sorry, I in no way meant to imply that I did. I was just using your quote as a springboard, not as a way to direct the post at you.

 

[Aeolius]

Great.... just great... I still won't play 4e.... but now I want Chinese take-out