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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 5618235" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>I don't know if you were around then, but you're ignoring that WotC seemed to have spent a fair amount of effort to become regarded as outsiders - they had killed the print mags when they were at their highest point for decades, they had ended the Dragonlance license. They had declared that they were ending the d20 license - leading to big fears that they would somehow pull the OGL as well. Either way, it was very clear that they were taking the D&D toys back in-house.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, WotC had spent a year before the announcement of 4e telling people "we're not working on a Fourth Edition <em>that requires miniatures</em>". <em>They</em> were very careful about adding those last three words, but unfortunately the common reading had missed them. So, when 4e was announced, there were widespread accusations of lying from WotC. (It wasn't their fault people misread what they said. However, they were then in a damned-if-they-do/damned-if-they-don't position - clarify the situation meant confirming 4e early; failing to do so left them open to accusations of lying. They chose the latter, and fair enough. But their <em>big</em> mistake was trying to talk about 4e without talking about 4e.)</p><p></p><p>So, yeah, there was a <em>huge</em> amount of bad blood aimed at WotC at that time. And then they released these videos which <em>could</em> be read as an attack on old playstyles. When some people objected to the loss of their favourite PC race, they responded with the "The Teifling and the Gnome" video, which was clearly meant as a joke, but which was read by some as an attack.</p><p></p><p>It was a really bad time, and if you weren't there then you probably can't grasp just how deep the wounds go. (It also didn't help that there were some posters, on <em>both</em> sides of the debate, who <em>really</em> fired up the Edition Wars. A couple of really bad eggs did a huge amount of damage to relations on both sides.)</p><p></p><p>Did people over-react? Sure, and quite badly. But were WotC tactless, often <em>really</em> tactless? Sure.</p><p></p><p>According to your join dates, it doesn't look like you were around then. Of course, it's possible that you were, but using different accounts. But if you <em>weren't</em> around then, you probably don't understand just how toxic the environment on ENWorld was at the time. And dismissing people's reactions as "a myth", or throwing around statements like "seige mentality" or "tribalism" <em>really</em> doesn't help. Please stop throwing salt on old wounds that still haven't properly healed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 5618235, member: 22424"] I don't know if you were around then, but you're ignoring that WotC seemed to have spent a fair amount of effort to become regarded as outsiders - they had killed the print mags when they were at their highest point for decades, they had ended the Dragonlance license. They had declared that they were ending the d20 license - leading to big fears that they would somehow pull the OGL as well. Either way, it was very clear that they were taking the D&D toys back in-house. Additionally, WotC had spent a year before the announcement of 4e telling people "we're not working on a Fourth Edition [i]that requires miniatures[/i]". [i]They[/i] were very careful about adding those last three words, but unfortunately the common reading had missed them. So, when 4e was announced, there were widespread accusations of lying from WotC. (It wasn't their fault people misread what they said. However, they were then in a damned-if-they-do/damned-if-they-don't position - clarify the situation meant confirming 4e early; failing to do so left them open to accusations of lying. They chose the latter, and fair enough. But their [i]big[/i] mistake was trying to talk about 4e without talking about 4e.) So, yeah, there was a [i]huge[/i] amount of bad blood aimed at WotC at that time. And then they released these videos which [i]could[/i] be read as an attack on old playstyles. When some people objected to the loss of their favourite PC race, they responded with the "The Teifling and the Gnome" video, which was clearly meant as a joke, but which was read by some as an attack. It was a really bad time, and if you weren't there then you probably can't grasp just how deep the wounds go. (It also didn't help that there were some posters, on [i]both[/i] sides of the debate, who [i]really[/i] fired up the Edition Wars. A couple of really bad eggs did a huge amount of damage to relations on both sides.) Did people over-react? Sure, and quite badly. But were WotC tactless, often [i]really[/i] tactless? Sure. According to your join dates, it doesn't look like you were around then. Of course, it's possible that you were, but using different accounts. But if you [i]weren't[/i] around then, you probably don't understand just how toxic the environment on ENWorld was at the time. And dismissing people's reactions as "a myth", or throwing around statements like "seige mentality" or "tribalism" [i]really[/i] doesn't help. Please stop throwing salt on old wounds that still haven't properly healed. [/QUOTE]
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What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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