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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="GregoryOatmeal" data-source="post: 5626074" data-attributes="member: 6667661"><p>Word. The "4e is tabletop WOW" crowd really annoyed me since they never gave the game a chance.</p><p></p><p>Regarding all the solutions, YMMV, but personally I've been down these roads and I feel like I'm a lost cause now.</p><p></p><p>I'm really burnt out on using computers with D&D. I used to subscribe to Insider and used the encounter programs to build encounters. I had to screenshot the monster blocks, pull them into Word and print the paper. The cost in ink and time staring at the computer was just too much. When I already purchased the book I felt like I was being jipped - I honestly wouldn't go back to using the WOTC tools even if they were free.</p><p></p><p>I also got tired of perusing the thousands of monsters for a logical combination with the right amount of controllers, artillery, soldiers, elite monsters, etc. Then I would have to figure out how to justify in narrative all the powers the monsters had and how to add enough terrain to make the combat interesting. I spent so much time designing encounters with the professional tools that my campaigns turned into railroads because I'd secretly get upset with the players when they avoided my fights. I really began to dread making encounters and quests. I'm much happier with "roll 2d12. That's how many orcs you have to fight. Oh, you rolled 23? Hard cheese. Figure a way out of it - the world doesn't bend to your abilities". I work in front of a computer so when I design stuff for my game I really just want to sit down with a notebook and write down the HP, AC, and attacks of a monster. And with C&C I often just skip the notebook and wing the stats.</p><p></p><p>So I can make a good adventure, and I can tell my players enjoyed my content a hell of a lot more than the 4E delves. But I feel my DMing style benefits when I distance myself from the campaign world and just let them run wild with something I didn't create - it makes me feel like more of a spectator/referee and less like a biased creator pulling strings and making plans. Also in the old modules I like the pictures, I like to read other peoples ideas when I'm not feeling creative, I like the handouts, and I like to curl up to these before I go to bed. If the players go off on a tangent that's just gravy because I didn't spend hours designing a story for that evening.</p><p></p><p>I've tried all of those tips for making encounters go faster. More dmg, less hp, etc., etc. Players have been conditioned for years to be able to kill an orc with one good shot. Now that they can't it's hard to adjust. Keeping players focused is very difficult 45 minutes into a random encounter. And getting them to write down their powers - sometimes you ask and they just don't. Again it's just one more complexity to keep track of.</p><p></p><p>So it's more stuff - minis, tiles, computer programs to manage monsters and conditions, balancing monster roles, feats, skills, power cards and on and on. Back when it was "Advanced" D&D when we were playing in our parents car on a road trip we did fine without any of that stuff! Now I still use a lot of the above but I try to keep it under control because managing all those knick-knacks can really be debilitating.</p><p></p><p>I'm too young to be a grognard</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GregoryOatmeal, post: 5626074, member: 6667661"] Word. The "4e is tabletop WOW" crowd really annoyed me since they never gave the game a chance. Regarding all the solutions, YMMV, but personally I've been down these roads and I feel like I'm a lost cause now. I'm really burnt out on using computers with D&D. I used to subscribe to Insider and used the encounter programs to build encounters. I had to screenshot the monster blocks, pull them into Word and print the paper. The cost in ink and time staring at the computer was just too much. When I already purchased the book I felt like I was being jipped - I honestly wouldn't go back to using the WOTC tools even if they were free. I also got tired of perusing the thousands of monsters for a logical combination with the right amount of controllers, artillery, soldiers, elite monsters, etc. Then I would have to figure out how to justify in narrative all the powers the monsters had and how to add enough terrain to make the combat interesting. I spent so much time designing encounters with the professional tools that my campaigns turned into railroads because I'd secretly get upset with the players when they avoided my fights. I really began to dread making encounters and quests. I'm much happier with "roll 2d12. That's how many orcs you have to fight. Oh, you rolled 23? Hard cheese. Figure a way out of it - the world doesn't bend to your abilities". I work in front of a computer so when I design stuff for my game I really just want to sit down with a notebook and write down the HP, AC, and attacks of a monster. And with C&C I often just skip the notebook and wing the stats. So I can make a good adventure, and I can tell my players enjoyed my content a hell of a lot more than the 4E delves. But I feel my DMing style benefits when I distance myself from the campaign world and just let them run wild with something I didn't create - it makes me feel like more of a spectator/referee and less like a biased creator pulling strings and making plans. Also in the old modules I like the pictures, I like to read other peoples ideas when I'm not feeling creative, I like the handouts, and I like to curl up to these before I go to bed. If the players go off on a tangent that's just gravy because I didn't spend hours designing a story for that evening. I've tried all of those tips for making encounters go faster. More dmg, less hp, etc., etc. Players have been conditioned for years to be able to kill an orc with one good shot. Now that they can't it's hard to adjust. Keeping players focused is very difficult 45 minutes into a random encounter. And getting them to write down their powers - sometimes you ask and they just don't. Again it's just one more complexity to keep track of. So it's more stuff - minis, tiles, computer programs to manage monsters and conditions, balancing monster roles, feats, skills, power cards and on and on. Back when it was "Advanced" D&D when we were playing in our parents car on a road trip we did fine without any of that stuff! Now I still use a lot of the above but I try to keep it under control because managing all those knick-knacks can really be debilitating. I'm too young to be a grognard [/QUOTE]
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