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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nnms" data-source="post: 5632928" data-attributes="member: 83293">During the times I've posted regularly, I've been an ardent defender of 4E since it's release.  There are some things I don't like about it.  Some (most?) of these things are features of the game that I have in the past defended as being good.1) Leveling as a pacing mechanic.Leveling is not really a power increase mechanic in 4E.  The monster defenses, skill DCs, etc., all pretty much scale at the same rate that the PCs increase in those areas.Go up to level2?  Awesome!  +1 to hit and a bunch of skills.  But what do you know, monsters now have their defenses increased by one.  Grabbed a feat to do more damage?  Monster HP are also increased.  Skill DCs that are level + number also go up.At first I thought leveling up as a pacing mechanic was cool, now I'm not convinced.2) Your primary source of XP is from defeating monsters, surviving traps, completing skill challenges and quests.In previous editions of the game that I liked (not 3.x), the vast majority of your XP came from getting treasure.  You wanted to avoid dangerous fights and things like wandering monsters were really bad becuase they bled your resources but offered little reward (as the best treasure/XP hauls were from monster lairs).In 4E, all wondering monsters do is slow things down and slide along the pacing mechanic with extra XP.3) The tactical set piece encounterI'm a huge miniature gamer and love tactical games.  So I love 4E tactical combats.  But they scratch my miniature gamer itch and not really my roleplaying itch.  Hamming it up in combat with extra dialogue and description doesn't do much other than slow things down even further.4) Slow combatI find 4E combat very quick for a tactical miniatures game (go play battletech with the same number of miniatures involved).  But compared to other RPGs and pre 3.x D&D (or 2E Black book tactical options) combat, it's super slow.5) Skill challengesI've run successful skill challenges using the rules as they are, alternate systems and the like, but I've found that they end up restricting things and causing more problems than they solve.My current approach is to have the stakes set.  The group will say something like "We need to sneak past that town and get to the stream the scout told us about."  And I'll ask them what they do and they keep doing stuff until it gets resolved in the narrative.  If I get asked "is this a skill challenge" I say either "yes" or "no" as I feel like on a whim and the players act pretty much the same way regardless.  I've DMed for about 100 people since 4E came out and whether I announce a skill challenge or not, they declare what they are trying to accomplish and they roll.  If more failures that successes start popping up, they get closer and closer to not getting what they want when the goal was stated.The only difference seems to be that if I say "yes" and they succeed, they also ask for XP.  If I say "no" and they succeed, they don't ask for XP after.6) Resource refreshesThe nature of how resources are refreshed forces some contraints onto the narrative.  Either each adventuring day contains the assumed number of encounters and you have enough XP to level gained every two or three days of adventuring, or you run less encounters and people can nova and use daily powers (and have tons of HP and healing) far more often than the encounter design math assumes.One house rule I've taken to using is to have all daily powers recharge on a 5 or 6 rolled at the beginning of each encounter.  I haven't figured out a method like that for healing surges as it'd be too easy to get it wrong one way or the other and have nearly invincible PCs who never get low on surges or have a death spiral where surges don't recharge as fast as they are used.7) Assumed math and statsDark Sun and Gamma World make it pretty obvious that 4E characters have two real stats.  "I'm awesome" and "I'm almost as awesome at this too."  Basically, primary and secondary stats are assumed to be 18 and 16 give or take one +1 modifier.Attributes don't really describe a character in 4E.  You can be charismatic but weak and slow and be a combat god.  Older editions of D&D had this issue as well, but not to the same degree.8) Treasure, gold, etc.,.Treasure is meaningless as a measure of purchasing power or wealth in 4E as it has a secondary role of being another form of XP that you spend on magic items, rituals, etc.,.  The treasure system is based on two sub-tiers per tier where values raise exponentially to make any variance in previous level's treasure hauls become meaningless pretty fast.  So if a DM messes up treasure, in a few levels it'll be fixed by the exponential price increases of everything.  What does it matter if the DM gave the group and extra 400 gold per character across the 10 encounters of level 1 when all that it can ever get them is an extra level 1 item?  By the time level 5 or so items are normal, it's pretty meaningless.Armour and equipment is also pretty meaningless as you always start out with enough gold to get the armour, weapons and gear needed to keep your attack bonuses and defenses in keeping with the system math.  And as you adventure, you'll either find the appropriate items to keep that math in check or maybe the DM will use inherent bonuses or something.  I have fond memories of pre-3.x D&D where I started with chain and did my best to save and scrimp to buy something like banded mail.  Plate on mail?  Full plate?  One day maybe.  Starting with it?  Wow.  I miss that.9) RitualsI don't like that they cost gold to cast.  Nor their casting time.  I find most of them pretty uninspiring.  Casters got too powerful in late 2E and 3.x, but rituals aren't really a pleasing alternative.So where does this leave me?I'm still DMing but I've reduced the game from weekly to every second week.  I still occasionally play when the opportunity arises, but look at it as a tactical miniature game with dialogue rather than being the same as what I do when I play Call of Cthulhu, Dark Dungeons or In A Wicked Age.Where am I headed?Savage Worlds, I think.  With the gritty options added in to make the main characters even less superheroic than they already are.  It still can handle miniatures well, but combat is much, much faster.  It's advancement system is not a pacing mechanic per se as it doesn't auto include increases to combat numbers at the same rate they go up on the monsters.  The primary source of XP is going after what you want as a player.  The game doesn't necessarily have combat mode/exploration mode/skill challenge mode, etc., and is instead a more traditional task resolution emergent play game.The new Deluxe edition is pretty impressive and I'm glad someone bought me a gift of the book and physical book bundle.</blockquote>

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