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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nnms" data-source="post: 5633852" data-attributes="member: 83293">I don't disagree with anything of your last two posts.  I think 4E is a really tight design and think that some house rules are needed to drift it off it's normal mode of play.I completely agree.This thread is more than just a 4E vs 3.x (or whatever someone's pet edition is).  It's widened out to include other, non D&D RPGs.  If people are having issues with 4E, then there's no reason to think a previous edition of the game with the exact same issue would solve their problem.So here's my take on Savage Worlds for the 12 issues I raised with 4E:1) Advancement as a pacing mechanic and not a power mechanicNot truly present.  There are some guilde lines about how skilled opponents might be in combat, but it doesn't encourage a one to one mapping of target numbers like 4E does.  You get some XP together and get better with your sword and the other PC gets some XP together and gets better at diplomacy and the monsters don't suddenly get one better in their defensive stats.  If they did, then any non combat expenditure of a XP would be a trap choice.  Features are weaknesses depending on how you look at them.  One could easily make the case that Savage Worlds falls short in terms of ease of combat encounter design compared to 4E.2) XP sourced in combatXP is awarded at the end of each session based on whether or not the PCs accomplished their goals.  Whatever the characters are trying to accomplish, that's the source of XPs.3) Tactical set piece encounterNot really present in the same way.  Though it can handle it for when you want tactical set piece encounters.  While combat is talked about in miniature gaming terms, it doesn't really run as a "okay, let's set up the battle map" type game like 4E does.  The combat system can handle non-grid/miniatures usage a lot easier than 4E and you don't have to have jarring shifts between exploration mode and combat mode.4) Slow CombatNot really an issue.  The wound system and how being shaken works means things can be over, very, very quickly.  You don't grind down monster HP because they don't have any.  You hit them, you exceed their toughness by your damage enough and they get either shaken, wounded or incapacitated.  In the GMing section, when it talks about combat going too long, it mentions things like 50 combatants being the source of the problem.  50!    Some of their earlier published adventures seem to have had toughness stats a bit too high, but the current stuff doesn't.  5) Skill challengesSavage Worlds has dramatic tasks.  They're not like skill challenges though.  They're for ticking time bombs where you are doing one thing and need to finish it while you're on the clock.  Generally speaking, Savage Worlds relies on the typical task resolution mechanic to generate emergent play.6) Resource refreshesDoesn't have them to the same degree.  You don't lose HP, you get wounds.  And the wounds need to be treated either with heal checks or magic or super science.  And if you don't have super science or magic, the process is super slow compared to 4E and many injuries can be permanent.  Power points for things like magic recharge at about 10% per hour, so they're not quite as fast as 4E's refreshes.7) Assumed math and statsNot an issue.  Your stats actually describe your character rather than being assumed parts of the combat system.  This can be a trade off as you can easily make someone who can't hold their own in a fight by making someone who doesn't have the skills to hold their own in a fight.  8) Treasure/wealthNot an issue.  It's not really a secondary XP system where you get magic item powers like in 4E.  If you're playing a fantasy type game, gold and silver will be money.  If you can buy magic items or whatever, it'll be based on whatever market value actually makes sense, rather than an arbitrary exponentially increasing number tied to level and tier.Conversely, Armour and equipment matters.  You cant' really start off affording top quality stuff unless you specifically choose edges related to being wealthier.  The game doesn't assume that everyone will have certain armour and proficiency bonuses and have the equipment needed to get them there.You get the money together to buy better equipment if it makes sense.  The game uses more realistic weight rules and greater armor protection won't make sense for every character.In 4E, the treasure system assumes that mundane equipment is pretty much valueless and that GPs are a form of XPs to buy magic item effects.  Savage Worlds assumes money is money and if wearing heavy armour or plowing your resources into a really good sword is what you want to do, you can do it.  But if you don't, you won't be behind the curve because you'd be missing an enhancement bonus that is part of the monster math system.9) RitualsSavage Worlds doesn't really have them at all.  Spell casters are lower in power in the base game and generally don't have tons of different spells like in D&D.  If you added them under the Setting Rules section in Savage Worlds, you'd simply build them using the trappings/powers chapter.  If you are constrained for time when performing a non-combat type ritual in combat, you'd use the dramatic actions rules to see if you finish it in time.  Overall, without Setting Rules changing it to be otherwise, Savage Worlds seems to handle Conan-esque low magic settings better than Forgotten Realms type high magic.10) Defined PC and NPC combat rolesDoesn't exist in SW.  There aren't even classes.  It's a classless points buy character building system.11) Too easy to GMMight be an issue.  I'm reading lots of reviews that say once you've got a good grip on it you can pretty much improv GM it and shoot from the hip.12) RealismAt it's core, the game has pulp sensibilities that aren't very realistic.  But the deluxe rules does have options to choose from to remove those elements and replace them with more realistic ones.  Even with the pulp sensibilities, hitting someone in the face with a battle axe is likely going to end them.So there we go.  The 12 main issues I'm currently having with 4E and how I think an alternative, non-D&D rules set will solve them for me.Do I think 4E is a bad game?  No, I think it's a great game.  I'm just tired of all its peculiarities and want to play something that has ones I'm not tired of yet.</blockquote>

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