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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4044656" data-attributes="member: 4937">Grappling is fine how it is.  Any simplification of it has unnecessary side effects.Do away with the AoO, and there really is no penalty for attempting to grapple.  An unarmed guy can just reach around a sword with no problems.Do away with the touch attack, and big clumsy ogres can grab nimble little pixies out of the air with ease.Note that once you are grappling, these two complexities go away.  They are things that happen before the grapple that are very helpful for balancing the game.Do away with the grapple check and there isn't much left in the way of resolution.All the real complexity of grappling is in the condition 'grappled' itself.  That is, for each action you could normally attempt, 'grappled' has some impact on the action.  IMO, alot of the confusion here comes from minor differences between 3.0 and 3.5.  Some changes were for the better (and some weren't) but I'm not sure that any were worth the confusion that they caused.The grappling rules aren't perfect.  There are some conceptual improvements that I think are needed, like for example, it shouldn't take a special feat to throw someone from a grapple.  Also, there have been repeated requests for another fantasy staple - scrambling up a large foe and hanging on - which is not actually a grapple but neither is there a rule covering it.  But simplifying and abstracting the rules carries with it a price that I don't think most people really want to pay.  Grappling is a horribly unbalanced attack form.  It is IRL too.  My suggestion would be consider as a DM whether PC's foe needs to be 200' feet tall and weigh 160 tons, and consider as a PC whether getting up close and personal with something like that is actually a good idea.  Now, as for the claim that the rules would be better if grappling was simply removed as an option, that's pretty typical 4e thinking.  My thinking is that its pretty easy to ignore a rule you don't like, but it's hard to create one you need.The grappling rules are far simplier than the combat rules as a whole.  Perhaps we should simply get rid of the combat rules.</blockquote>

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