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<blockquote data-quote="Jackelope King" data-source="post: 4045356" data-attributes="member: 31454">I actually don't mind grappling. I've got the rules down and I'm the one to guide my group through it most of the time. But I can still see that there are problems, since all of them understand how to perform other strange maneuvers. The problem with grappling has already been explained in this thread:1. Too many steps. All other combat subsystems in d20 break down to &quot;Attack Roll, Resolution Roll&quot;, where the attack roll lets you know if you hit, and the resolution roll lets you know how much damage you did or of the bad guy saved or if you tripped the bad guy or what have you. Grappling doesn't.2. Too many exceptions. Especially when you throw monsters in on it, there are just too many weird conditions that only come into play in this one subsystem, and of course, very few of them follow the core d20 + modifier vs DC system.3. Too terrifying. Couple the above moderate complexity with the fact that most of the time, someone being grappled isn't optimized for it, so the player doesn't know the rules when the giant tentacled beast starts grabbing his character. It's an &quot;Oh no, oh no, what do I do?&quot; moment. And then this &quot;Oh no&quot; moment is stretched out across several rolls (which the player is making blind, with only a faint idea if they're rolling well or poorly relative to the enemy), and usually ends with some ability that the player's never heard of before severely injuring the character. End result: &quot;grappling is bad&quot; becomes ingrained in the player's mind.The solution? Figure out some way for grappling to follow similar rules to everything else. Call is &quot;grab&quot; instead of &quot;grapple&quot; if you have to, but make it work the same way as things players are familiar with so at least they'll know what they're doing when Grabby McTentacles comes lunging at their characters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jackelope King, post: 4045356, member: 31454"] I actually don't mind grappling. I've got the rules down and I'm the one to guide my group through it most of the time. But I can still see that there are problems, since all of them understand how to perform other strange maneuvers. The problem with grappling has already been explained in this thread: 1. Too many steps. All other combat subsystems in d20 break down to "Attack Roll, Resolution Roll", where the attack roll lets you know if you hit, and the resolution roll lets you know how much damage you did or of the bad guy saved or if you tripped the bad guy or what have you. Grappling doesn't. 2. Too many exceptions. Especially when you throw monsters in on it, there are just too many weird conditions that only come into play in this one subsystem, and of course, very few of them follow the core d20 + modifier vs DC system. 3. Too terrifying. Couple the above moderate complexity with the fact that most of the time, someone being grappled isn't optimized for it, so the player doesn't know the rules when the giant tentacled beast starts grabbing his character. It's an "Oh no, oh no, what do I do?" moment. And then this "Oh no" moment is stretched out across several rolls (which the player is making blind, with only a faint idea if they're rolling well or poorly relative to the enemy), and usually ends with some ability that the player's never heard of before severely injuring the character. End result: "grappling is bad" becomes ingrained in the player's mind. The solution? Figure out some way for grappling to follow similar rules to everything else. Call is "grab" instead of "grapple" if you have to, but make it work the same way as things players are familiar with so at least they'll know what they're doing when Grabby McTentacles comes lunging at their characters. [/QUOTE]

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