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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Benimoto" data-source="post: 4045567" data-attributes="member: 40093">I think the problem with grapple is that a) it's a subsystem, and b) it has like 15 options.  Neither would be all bad by itself, but when combined, you have trouble.  Since it's a subsystem, you're always going to have one player or another who isn't familiar with the rules, and then since it has like 15 options, it takes a significant chunk of time to explain to that player what exactly they can do in the grapple.Plus, of the 15 options, some are really bad, and just included for the sake of completeness.  Draw a light weapon?  That's useful never.  If you can win a grapple check, why not either escape the grapple or pin the opponent?  Unless you're really, really good with that light weapon and just didn't have it in your hand for no good reason.  Move the grapple?  Break another's pin?  Use opponent's weapon?  I've never seen anybody do any of those.  Plus, they all suffer from the same problem that you have to succeed on a grapple check to do any of them, and if you can succeed on a grapple check, there better options.So it has all those options, and still isn't complete enough.  Didn't we just hear in that thread about Bugbear Stranglers that people wanted to be able to use the opponent as a living shield?  There's no option for a throw or a body slam or other fairly common wrestling moves.Plus, on top of all that, as about a million people have mentioned, there's the additional problem that the monsters always win.  So it turns a bunch of big monsters into grapplers, since it's so good.  Bears?  Grapple.  T-Rexes?  Grapple.  Dragons with the Snatch feat?  Grapple.  Which then ends up taking any interesting features of the monster away.  They're just another big thing grappling you.It's just too much of a hassle for little payoff.</blockquote>

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