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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GregoryOatmeal" data-source="post: 5691855" data-attributes="member: 6667661">So I'll just disregard the rude comments about using imaginary numbers. There's an obvious zeitgeist here against 4E, and it's curious how much two pools can vary. What geographic factor would cause folks in Louisville to play different games than in Flagstaff? Those kinds of numbers (on meetup) vary so widely it's unbelievable. If you're a gamer I'll talk to you, so it's strange how their can be such a large hidden 4E community.I've met a lot of gamers, mostly millenials, and I can count the number of 4E enthusiasts I know on one hand. Two of those were swayed by positive experiences in my own 4E game. In my more limited experience with older gamers they seem to be a bit more open to 4E, but tend to stick to older editions more often than not. I imagine the meetup applies to an older crowd than the 18-24 group that dominates a college town. So is it a generational thing?I hang out at a comic store that sells 4E and PF and the owner says the customer base feels about the same way. I actually came in the store after it opened and convinced him to order 4E books and that was the beginning of his business in tabletop roleplaying. He later bought Pathfinder since so many customers complained to him about not wanting to buy 4E. Oddly he seems to sell more 4E books than PF because they're required for the Encounters event. But interestingly the folks at the Encounters that bought the books don't care much for 4E or Encounters - they're just busy professionals with kids looking to get a fix on a Wednesday night from an event that doesn't require prep or much time commitment. So WOTC is profiting from a game where the ambiance of the table damages it's brand image - it's weird.Your PF/D&D tally of amazon doesn't account for all of the people that play 3.5/PF off their SRDs. Also lots of college kids play off of pirated PDFs. While that obviously isn't a group WOTC wants to chase, those people are teaching new players 3.5 and the edition is gaining new loyalists.It's weird - I hear comments all the time from the 4E crowd like "It'd be fun to give that a try but I can't find people because everyone hates 4E". That implies of the lets say forty gamers they knew, from whichever state they came from, they've had the same experience as me (Flagstaff sees a lot of out of state students coming in for college). How is that not indicative of something? You can say the 3.5 grognards are the loudest and whiniest (and you'd probably be right in many cases) but it really feels like the 4E crowd must be entirely in the closet. Until I got here...</blockquote>

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