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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6038647" data-attributes="member: 42582">I agree that the stats in MM3 and the MVs are clearly better than the original MM. But I don't agree that the MM was garbage - once you correct for its damage problem, and for brute to-hit, it's got some mechanically interesting monsters. And at low levels you don't even need to correct the damage. The Deathlock Wight, for example, is in my view the best low-level undead creature ever published for D&D. And the goblins and hobgoblins are great!I also prefer the MM flavour text to that in the MM3 and MV (MV2 is a different matter - it's flavour text is excellent). The MM3 and MV flavour text is wordy and ponderous, in my view, whereas the MM is generally tight and to the point.Here are some of the highlights of the 4e MM entry on goblins:* Goblins are as prolific as humankind, but are less creative and more prone to warlike behavior. Goblins’ bellicose nature can be traced, in part, to their reverence for the god Bane, whom they see as the mightiest hobgoblin warchief in the cosmos. * Goblins are cowardly and tend to retreat or surrender when outmatched. They are fond of taking slaves and often become slaves themselves. * Goblins form tribes, each ruled by a chieftain. The chieftain is usually the strongest member of the tribe, though some chieftains rely on guile more than martial strength. * Goblins live in the wild places of the world, often underground, but they stay close enough to other humanoid settlements to prey on trade caravans and unwary travelers. A goblin lair is stinking and soiled, though easily defensible and often riddled with simple traps. Goblins sleep, eat, and spend leisure time in shared living areas. Only a leader has private chambers. * Hobgoblins rule the most civilized goblin tribes, sometimes building small settlements and fortresses that rival those of human construction. * Hobgoblins once had an empire in which bugbears and goblins were their servants. This empire fell to internal strife and interference from otherworldly forces—perhaps the fey, whom many goblins hate. * Hobgoblins developed mundane and magical methods for taming and breeding beasts as guards, laborers, and soldiers. They have a knack for working with wolves and worgs, and some drake breeds owe their existence directly to hobgoblin meddling. Given their brutal magical traditions, hobgoblins might have created their cousins in ancient times: Bugbears served as elite warriors, and goblins worked as scouts and infiltrators. The disintegration of hobgoblin power led to widespread and diverse sorts of goblin tribes.Here is the habitat/society information on goblins I found <a href="http://" target="_blank">here</a>, which seems to be a cut-and-paste of the AD&D 2nd ed MM:* Goblins live only 50 years or so. They do not need to eat much, but will kill just for the pleasure of it. They eat any creature from rats and snakes to humans. In lean times they will eat carrion. Goblins usually spoil their habitat, driving game from it and depleting the area of all resources. They are decent miners. * Humans would consider the caves and underground dwellings of goblins to be dank and dismal. Those few tribes that live above ground are found in ruins, and are only active at night or on very dark, cloudy days. They use no form of sanitation, and their lairs have a foul stench. Goblins seem to be somewhat resistant to the diseases that breed in such filth. * Goblins live a communal life, sharing large common areas for eating and sleeping. Only leaders have separate living spaces. All their possessions are carried with them. Property of the tribe is kept with the chief and sub-chiefs. Most of their goods are stolen, although they do manufacture their own garments and leather goods. The concept of privacy is largely foreign to goblins. * Goblins often take slaves for both food and labor. The tribe will have slaves of several races numbering 10-40% of the size of the tribe. Slaves are always kept shackled, and are staked to a common chain when sleeping. * A goblin tribe has an exact pecking order; each member knows who is above him and who is below him. They fight amongst themselves constantly to move up this social ladder. * Goblins hate most other humanoids, gnomes and dwarves in particular, and work to exterminate them whenever possible. * A typical goblin tribe has 40-400 (4d10 x 10) adult male warriors. In addition to the males, there will be adult females equal to 60% of their number and children equal to the total number of adults in the lair. Neither will fight in battles. [There are also rules for placing tougher goblins in the tribe. In 4e, these rules are found in the encounter and adventure design guidelines in the DMG.]I don't see any significant contrast here between "incorporating goblins into a campaign" and "feeling like a board game". The 2nd ed entry has more precise demography. The 4e entry has more history (both mythic and more recent). I personally prefer a game in which mythic history is more significant than demography, and so prefer the 4e flavour text.I'm not familiar with all the 2nd ed Monster Books. But I have a MM, MM2 and FF for AD&D, and know them pretty well. And I also have a 3E MM. I simply don't accept that the 4e MM has less detail in its flavour text than those books.I've given the goblin example already. Other highlights of the 4e MM include the entry on spiders (which tells me that Lolth was once a goddess of fate, and learned the art of weaving from spiders), the entries on demons and devils (which have far more detail on their mythic histories, and their planar setups, than either the 1st ed MM - or even the MM2 - or the 3E MM), the entry on dragons (which has more detailed mythic history than AD&D or 3E, and comparable further flavour) and the entry on hydras (which once again has a mythic history not found in Gygax's MM or in 3E).Plus there is the implicit flavour. For example, the 4e MM gives Azer and Galeb Duhr a backstory that links them to the backstory for dwarves (found predominantly in the PHB), and thereby a place in the world, which they did not have in the AD&D MM2 or in the 3E MM.Here is the 4e MM flavour text for Azer:Long ago, all dwarves were slaves to the giants and titans. Today’s dwarves are the descendants of those who freed themselves. Azers are dwarves that did not escape captivity before they were corrupted and transformed into fiery beings by their overlords. Although a few have escaped captivity since, most azers remain bound to their fire giant masters to this day. . . In fire giant strongholds, azers perform menial tasks better suited to smaller hands, and they act as a front line in defense.How is that in anyway inadequate as flavour text? It tells you how the monster came to be. It tells you where it can be found and what it will be doing. And most importantly, it gives the monster a narrative place in the game - a servant of a greater evil; a creature that came into its servitude unwillingly, via a fall or corruption; a creature that the player of the dwarf PC can experience as sympathetic ("There but for the grace of Moradin  . . . ")  or as repulsive ("Those snivelling Azer who could not free themselves - a shame to dwarves everywherer!") or in other, more subtle ways.Here is the flavour text for Galeb Duhr:Remorseless creatures of living stone, galeb duhrs often serve hill giants or earth titans, and their nature is similarly harsh and unrelenting. . . Long ago, all dwarves were slaves to the giants and titans. More than one variety of dwarf failed to escape during the initial revolution, including the galeb duhrs. However, unlike the azers that continue to serve their masters in the Elemental Chaos, many galeb duhrs have slipped away from their brutish masters into the world. On the other hand, some still serve their hill giant and earth titan overlords, both in the Elemental Chaos and in the natural world.Compare that to the <a href="http://www.dotd.com/mm/MM00104.htm" target="_blank">flavour text from the 2nd ed Monster Manual</a>:*Galeb duhr, thought to be native to the elemental plane of Earth, are sometimes encountered in small family groups in mountainous regions of the Prime Material plane. They live in rocky or mountainous areas where they can feel the earth power and control the rocks around them. Galeb duhr have no natural enemies, other than those who crave the gems they collect. In some strange way, galeb duhr feel responsible for the smaller rocks and boulders around them, in much the same way that a treant feels responsible for trees in its neighborhood. A traveler who disturbs the area near a galeb duhr does so at his own peril. * Galeb duhr eat rock, preferring granite to other types, and disdaining any sedimentary type. The rocks they eat become part of the huge creatures; such a meal need take place only once every two or three months. It is not known how (or whether) galeb duhr reproduce, but "young" galeb duhr have occasionally been reported * The “music” of the galeb duhr often provides the first evidence that these creatures are near -- and usually the only evidence, as the unsociable galeb duhr are quick to pass into the ground when they feel the vibrations of approaching visitors. Sitting together in groups, the galeb duhr harmonize their gravelly voices into eldritch tunes; some sages speculate that these melodies can cause or prevent earthquakes. Others argue that the low rumbling produced by these creatures is a form of warning to others in the group, but there is no conclusive evidence either way. * While galeb duhr seem to have no visible culture above ground, they are known to collect gems, which they find through their passwall ability. They sometimes have small magical items in their possession, evidently taken from those who attacked them to take their gems. Besides the gems that they carry with them, galeb duhr are likely to know where many other gems are, as well as veins of precious metals, such as gold, silver, and platinum, though galeb duhr seem to have no interest in these minerals for themselves. A few powerful mages have been able to bargain with the galeb duhr for this information. This is a difficult agreement to consummate, for the galeb duhr are valiant fighters, and usually have no difficulty in escaping from any harm if they are inclined to do so. Further, the galeb duhr are territorial, and would be irritated at any attempt to make use of this knowledge in their vicinity.Under what metric is this superior? Putting to one side the seeming contradictions (they feel responsible for the rocks and boulders in their neighbourhoods, but also eat them; they have no visible culture, but collect gems and create vocal music together), the only part of this entry that motivates the PCs to interact with a galeb duhr is the lust for gems and precious metal. The only part of that flavour text that makes me not judge it obviously weaker than the 4e text is the reference to the "music" of the galeb duhr preventing or causing earthquakes - this could actually be incorporated into the 4e flavour very nicely, because of the obvious link to the notorious dwarven fondness for the stentorian chanting of dirges.</blockquote>

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