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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 3080303" data-attributes="member: 12460">The other PCs are a Healer, Druid, and Monk.The healer has a d6 HD and 15 Con. She has about 15 hp less than the fighter. Her AC sucks because she only gets non-metal armor (and for that matter the player has invested no resources in AC, leather armor only so AC 12). I think the reason why she does not deal much damage is obvious.The druid has a d8 HD and 12 Con base (14 with amulet of health). She has about as many hp as the healer, which is to be expected. Her AC is not impressive as she is limited to druid armor or the natural armor of her wild shape. Rarely higher than 20. She and her animal companion probably equal the dwarf in damage, more if enemies are bunched close enough for a flame strike.The monk has a Con of 8 and fewer hp than anyone else in the party for that reason. Of course, as anyone who has seen high level monks in play, he rarely takes damage thanks to improved evasion, high saves, and respectable AC. He gets a chance to shine on occassion, usually when fighting stunnable enemies and his damage approximates the dwarf's with Iron Fist, but he is more of the group's trickster, being agile and able to get into spots the rest of the group cannot (lacking a mage means flying is the sole domain of the wild shaping druid so being able to climb, balance, tumble, jump, and swim is valuable in this group).It also doesn't hurt that the dwarf has rolled very well for hp of late.Assuming an archetypal cleric, he would not necessarily be better at all of those. For one, the fighter has six extra fighting feats to improve his damage and attack bonus, not to mention his AC (there are numerous feats that do this as well). Second, the fighter has a higher BAB by 3 points at 12th level. Third, the cleric can only rival the fighter in fighting prowess IF he is allowed time to cast prep spells such as divine favor, divine power, righteous might, etc. That usually takes a round or two, and meanwhile, the fighter is beating away. Wise clerics will spend their time aiding the group with helpful spells, not trying to deal damage. Spells that allow a cleric to fight should be reserved as a last resort.You have a very narrowly defined definition of Charisma. I have already explained that the player of the dwarf roleplays the Charisma 6 well. He is gruff, rude, and never very friendly. When he tells people to do things, it is usually because he is able to leverage them by virtue of his importance to the group, not because he is a polarizing personality. He may not be a natural leader, but circumstances dictate that his position is vital to the group, and the wise character (Wis 12) is cognizant of that. Not to mention he has the Leadership feat, which I will point out to you has no Cha prerequisite. Now we could argue till we are blue in the face whether or not it SHOULD have one, but it doesn't, so obviously WotC does not correlate leadership potential with Charisma any more than the leadership chart indicates. Low Charisma characters can still be leaders. They will not be as inspiring as high Charisma characters and they will not attract as many followers, but that does not mean they are bad or ineffective leaders necessarily. He's playing the character written on the paper to a T, thank you.WTF? I wasn't lagging far behind everyone. I had 8th level spells thank you, and they were nice. My save DCs being measurably worse belied the fact that I was the only person casting fireball. Fireball with save DC 20 is better than no fireball. And I wasn't crying my eyes out that the save DC wasn't 21 (which is what it would have been if I had been able to buy an 18 as opposed to a 15). I never worried much about the hp barrier. False life and a good cleric (shugenja actually) took care of that problem. Nobody ever had to carry me. There are ways of increasing ability scores besides getting them at 1st level you know. Ability score boosts and magic items come to mind.Guess what, ogres in 3e have a HUGE LA and HD to boot. Not to mention AD&D characters weren't even capable of such high Str and Con without wish. An AD&D comparison means absolutely nothing in the context of this argument.Point buy favors powergamers. That is undisputable. Truth is, the game favors powergamers. And the more randomness you take out of the game, the more powergamers claim the upper hand. Point buy is not JUST for powergamers, but it certainly lets them min/max a lot more than random ability score generation does.</blockquote>

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