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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 8749484" data-attributes="member: 48965">1. This assumes the fighter is interested in pursuing a path of piety... and assumes the Cleric or Paladin deserves/needs/wants a Dues Ex Machina to circumvent the consequences of their actions... Why are neither of these a problem.  Also the fact that there is drama created doesn't address the fact that the fiction of anyone being able to do much of the cleric's main schtick has been decided solely by the DM.  Also how does this trickle down into the world at large...2. And similar to above you have effectively allowed a Deus Ex Machina to circumvent consequences, allowed a player (and by implication anybody) access to the niche of another player and defined a part of your worlds fiction that has gigantic ramifications for anyone who chose a religious character.3. Again this doesn't really address the point I'm getting at.  You're answers seem to be boiling down to... well IMO it's ok because IMO, it would make a cool story and simultaneously ignoring the actual reasons someone playing a cleric or paladin might not like it or think it's such a cool story.4.  The funny thing, for the Cleric or Paladin the result of each of these is the same for the fiction and how religious characters/gods fit into it.  Once this action is possible... what would stop any and everyone from trying it if there is a chance the cleric can't do it or in order to save resources?  If any one can ask for miracles... why are there clerics and paladins?  Why not just warriors who pray when they need something?But this is exactly what you are opening up once this is allowed, once the fiction is established... if it works... why wouldn't you try it whenever you can? No we don't have to assume "crappy" behavior on the part of the Fighter.  All we need is for the DM to establish it as fiction.  Why wouldn't you use it if it works?  If it does your character is just as effective (if not more because you didn't have to cast a spell or anything) as the cleric or paladin. Here's a question... what would be the DC in Athletics be for the Cleric to gain the multiple attacks of a fighter?  Would this be stepping on the fighter's toes (and assume a character's life is at risk from an opponent the cleric may not be able to take out with just one attack)?  If so, why?  If not, why not? Also would you expect that character to only ever try it in life or death situations once it was established that it could ben done, if so, why?     You expend resources, you have component restrictions, and so on are all reasons a player might want to just be able to say a prayer and heal.  Moreso would they be able to cast magic missile with an Arcaqna check if they wanted to?  Gain the extra attacks of a fighter with an Athletics check? If so my question would be why are we playing a class-based (instead of skill or point-buy based) game?</blockquote>

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