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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8755976" data-attributes="member: 6696971">This feels like a Monty Python satire.  Like we keep escalating from lifting curses to exorcism to channeling to summoning to turning tentacles to dust with a word...to outright divine apotheosis and on the last you say something like "........................................Divin.......inator...9000...yeah, yeah that's!  The Divinator9000 is responsible.  Its just mundane mastery of a weird machine like a sheet-metal cutter...that apotheosisinates folks!  Mundane!"You've got 3 huge confounds to this position.1)  Worlds and Monsters which came out before 4e and explained the setting:W&M p 13Remote Gods: (unrelated text)...They aren’t omniscient or omnipotent, but they do grant spells to clerics and hear the prayers of their faithful.2) My (2) in the initial post; Rituals keying off of Religion.  These are not Divine Power Sourced.  You don't have to have Divine Power Source as prereq to employ them and you don't gain Divine Power Source with Ritualist.  So, while you can try Divin-inator9000 away the entire Dungeon Mag improvised usage of Religion (which doesn't have Divine Power Source connected to it), Rituals are a giant, gaping confounder to your position (which is why they were included in the initial post).So through NON DIVINE POWER SOURCE Religion Rituals, you can:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Create persistent light from nothing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Purify pestilential/fetid water.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Speak and understand languages you wouldn't otherwise.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Speak with the dead.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Call upon mystical sages from the Astral or elsewhere for auguries.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Transport yourself and your allies to the Astral Sea.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Summon a demon or adjure one.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Demand an audience with an exarch of fate from Avandra, Ioun, Pelor, or the Raven Queen.</li> </ul>And much more.  Without Divine Power Source.3)  In The Manual of Planes and The Planes Above (2009 and 2010), Heinsoo et al explained in more detail how (2) can happen and what the Divine Power Source fully entails.  Its about actually becoming a member of the clergy, the initiated via rituals specific to the faith/god and being anointed with specific divine prowess as a result.  That is it.  They get a suite of clergy/anointed-specific prowess/capabilities that those without Divine Power Source don't have access to...just like the Sohei (priest) gets the same thing (access to specific Sohei themed Divine Power Source powers) or Paragon Paths that are holy orders do.  They draw their power from the Astral Sea via their god investing them because of ritual initiation into the clergy/ranks, servitude, etc.p16Player characters and other powerful beings that draw on the divine power source typically earn their powers through investiture. Neither a, deity nor its servitors needs to personally empower a cleric's prayers; rather, the cleric has gained the ability to control divine magic throughan initiation ritual particular to his or her god.Divine Power Source is a specific type of access to holy stuff.  But it isn't the only game in town.  And gods or angels or exarchs or other powers hear the prayers of the faithful.  And other terrible powers are apt to hear them as well (Demons or Devils or Far Realm entities) and would be all to happy to grant the wishes of the desperate...at a price.I mean...we're probably done here at this point.  But you can have the last word.</blockquote>

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