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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 8756037" data-attributes="member: 48965">I think you're failing to understand or as you said earlier unable to entertain you might be incorrect...  Nothing you've presented actually shows someone's prayers being answered by a divine being.  You can choose to layer that fiction on top of it if you want to but nothing you've presented actually supports that plain and simple.  Show me a clear example of supernatural divine power being invested in someone through prayers... not your subjective interpretation of what is taking place but an actual example.So they grant spells to clerics and... hear?? prayers...  Why not say they act on prayers, provide divine power or miracles?  Why? because it's left intentionally vague so the DM can decide.Rituals and rites are magical in and of themselves... they are a tool and your roll is to use them correctly, in the same way a scroll can allow someone to use magic but isn't them casting magic or being granted it directly by a greater power because they mumbled a prayer or arcane giberish.  I'm arguing against the default being a divine being hearing prayers and granting miracles as a default in 4e.  In all the examples you've provided it's starnge that this is considered a conceit of the world by you and some others and yet we haven't seen a single example of it... should be pretty easy to provideAnd thus this is the only thing that calls out divine beings granting something specifically... right? I never claimed it was "the only game in town" otherwise I wouldn't have agreed with DM fiat being viable earlier in the thread.  What I'm not agreeing with is that somehow mumbling a prayer and a divine being granting you power because of it is any more the default fiction-wise or mechanical-wise than it is in any other edition of D&D, which is to say up to DM fiat.Thanks, don't mind if I do...</blockquote>

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