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What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8756107" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I've never seen anyone treat that sort of play as perfectly fine and reasonable, and it certainly wasn't the impression given when that style was brought up earlier in the thread. </p><p></p><p>But, if it is perfectly fine... why not assume it?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The options for why the fighter is doing it? Of course not. </p><p></p><p>But frankly, they fall down towards a binary choice. Would you allow them to do it, yes or no? You can't have someone half-allow this. You either allow it, or you don't. And I'm sure you know the types of things you wouldn't allow this for, because you've listed quite a few. So why not just answer "Yes, I would allow it under these circumstances" rather than continue equivocating and saying you can't know?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nothing is obligatory. We can sit here talking in circles about how "not everyone will allow X" until we've acknowledged every single rule in every single book and every single situation ever conceived is all "at the DM's choice" but that doesn't actually get us anywhere. </p><p></p><p>The game specifically calls it out as an option. The DM is not obliged to listen to the game, but they likely have a reason to listen or not listen. And we can talk about that, rather than just saying "everything is the DM's discretion"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, so you wouldn't allow it at your table because clerics are basically just wizards that heal, and faith cannot call miracles. Though, I would argue with you about Eberron, but I'll save that for later. </p><p></p><p>Why did we need all these paragraphs of laying out every single possible consideration?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you as the DM are not receptive to the player's desires, the game will inevitably suffer. That doesn't mean you are a doormat, but you need to look to what the player's want, because that is the entire driving force behind the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll go ahead and say "a very tiny minority" since most people don't even know what "Melnibonean" even is anymore.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, so here I want to argue a bit about Eberron. Because, you are half right. </p><p></p><p>There is no direct evidence of the Gods being real. </p><p></p><p>There are literal mountains of evidence that FAITH leads to magical effects. The Blood of Vol is the perfect example. Now, maybe the gods are real and something like the Traveler is just messing with the followers of The Blood of Vol by making them think their powers come from themselves, but their entire religion is built around the idea that they are the source of divine power. And they have priests who pray to themselves and are able to heal and use divine magic. You also have the Silver Flame, which is a literal inferno of Divine Magic on the mortal plane. Seemingly powered by either an ascended mortal or just the faith of the followers</p><p></p><p>Now, this does depend on some specific examples, but we've gotten to a specific setting and place. If we are dealing with a Fighter who is a devout follower of the Blood of Vol... I'd be EVEN MORE likely to have this work in a desperate gamble, because now it isn't a matter of whether or not a real entity heard them, but whether or not their faith in miracles is strong enough to move the world. </p><p></p><p>I find Eberron actually the perfect example of why this sort of thing can work, because in Eberron there is a real argument that Divine Magic isn't special in anyway. You don't need to study, you don't need to pray. You need to BELIEVE. And I think the setting is full of people who have reported divine miracles happening in desperate times. The question isn't "does this happen?" but "Does this happen because of the people or does this happen as an intervention of the Gods?"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most Medieval and Christian texts. Tons of old medieval stories and even renaissance stories have this happen. Person has no magical powers, ends up in a desperate situation, boom, divine intervention.</p><p></p><p>And settings like Wheel of Time lack gods, or in the case of... What was Sparhawk from... The Elenium and the Tamuli by Eddings, in that setting there is no such thing as Magic that DOESN'T come from divine beings. At least not that I remember. All magic was divine magic. </p><p></p><p>DnD is very unique in being a setting that has explicit divine magic from the gods that is utterly separated from the arcane magic of wizards and other magic-users. Most fantasy literature everything is either one or the other.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some of this stuff I just don't think applies. Like "world logic" problems come up all the time in DnD. This isn't unique in that. Game Power is, like we said, minimal. </p><p></p><p>Now, I do agree that there is a risk of allowing this once, but then not again, and players feeling like that isn't fair. But I think if you talk to them about it, explain that this was once and that they can't expect it to happen again, then that is far less likely to occur. </p><p></p><p>Getting late and I'm trying to catch up on the thread, so I'll leave it there.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8756107, member: 6801228"] I've never seen anyone treat that sort of play as perfectly fine and reasonable, and it certainly wasn't the impression given when that style was brought up earlier in the thread. But, if it is perfectly fine... why not assume it? The options for why the fighter is doing it? Of course not. But frankly, they fall down towards a binary choice. Would you allow them to do it, yes or no? You can't have someone half-allow this. You either allow it, or you don't. And I'm sure you know the types of things you wouldn't allow this for, because you've listed quite a few. So why not just answer "Yes, I would allow it under these circumstances" rather than continue equivocating and saying you can't know? Nothing is obligatory. We can sit here talking in circles about how "not everyone will allow X" until we've acknowledged every single rule in every single book and every single situation ever conceived is all "at the DM's choice" but that doesn't actually get us anywhere. The game specifically calls it out as an option. The DM is not obliged to listen to the game, but they likely have a reason to listen or not listen. And we can talk about that, rather than just saying "everything is the DM's discretion" Okay, so you wouldn't allow it at your table because clerics are basically just wizards that heal, and faith cannot call miracles. Though, I would argue with you about Eberron, but I'll save that for later. Why did we need all these paragraphs of laying out every single possible consideration? If you as the DM are not receptive to the player's desires, the game will inevitably suffer. That doesn't mean you are a doormat, but you need to look to what the player's want, because that is the entire driving force behind the game. I'll go ahead and say "a very tiny minority" since most people don't even know what "Melnibonean" even is anymore. Okay, so here I want to argue a bit about Eberron. Because, you are half right. There is no direct evidence of the Gods being real. There are literal mountains of evidence that FAITH leads to magical effects. The Blood of Vol is the perfect example. Now, maybe the gods are real and something like the Traveler is just messing with the followers of The Blood of Vol by making them think their powers come from themselves, but their entire religion is built around the idea that they are the source of divine power. And they have priests who pray to themselves and are able to heal and use divine magic. You also have the Silver Flame, which is a literal inferno of Divine Magic on the mortal plane. Seemingly powered by either an ascended mortal or just the faith of the followers Now, this does depend on some specific examples, but we've gotten to a specific setting and place. If we are dealing with a Fighter who is a devout follower of the Blood of Vol... I'd be EVEN MORE likely to have this work in a desperate gamble, because now it isn't a matter of whether or not a real entity heard them, but whether or not their faith in miracles is strong enough to move the world. I find Eberron actually the perfect example of why this sort of thing can work, because in Eberron there is a real argument that Divine Magic isn't special in anyway. You don't need to study, you don't need to pray. You need to BELIEVE. And I think the setting is full of people who have reported divine miracles happening in desperate times. The question isn't "does this happen?" but "Does this happen because of the people or does this happen as an intervention of the Gods?" Most Medieval and Christian texts. Tons of old medieval stories and even renaissance stories have this happen. Person has no magical powers, ends up in a desperate situation, boom, divine intervention. And settings like Wheel of Time lack gods, or in the case of... What was Sparhawk from... The Elenium and the Tamuli by Eddings, in that setting there is no such thing as Magic that DOESN'T come from divine beings. At least not that I remember. All magic was divine magic. DnD is very unique in being a setting that has explicit divine magic from the gods that is utterly separated from the arcane magic of wizards and other magic-users. Most fantasy literature everything is either one or the other. Some of this stuff I just don't think applies. Like "world logic" problems come up all the time in DnD. This isn't unique in that. Game Power is, like we said, minimal. Now, I do agree that there is a risk of allowing this once, but then not again, and players feeling like that isn't fair. But I think if you talk to them about it, explain that this was once and that they can't expect it to happen again, then that is far less likely to occur. Getting late and I'm trying to catch up on the thread, so I'll leave it there. [/QUOTE]
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