Luis Figoo
First Post
As title and thanks
Whats the ECL of an Awakened Dog for a PC?
- Thread starter Luis Figoo
- Start date
Dingleberry
First Post
I had this exact situation IMC and couldn't find a conclusive answer (even on these boards). I ended up applying a +4 ECL.
Celebrim
Legend
Probably lower than you think.
Humans are +0 ECL and have two significant advantages, so in theory races start at a -2 level and build up.
Natural attack doing tiny weapon damage: +0
Small Size: +1
Extra Move (+10 ft): +1
Natural Armor +1: +1
Unbalanced Attributes (+2 STR, +6 DEX, +4 CON, +2 WIS, CHR -4): +2
Scent: +1
No arms, no manipulators: -1
Most abilities do not scale at higher levels (scent, low natural armor bonus, small size): -2
So I'd guess that an awakened dog has about a +1 ECL. At low levels you'd be quite powerful, but ultimately the in ability to use or wield anything would be a significant penalty. If you wanted to go for +0 ECL, you could add like a -4 or -6 penalty to intelligence.
There could concievably be some social stigma to being an awakened animal as well; in particular people might not consider it murder to kill a dog unless talking animals or animistic beliefs are common in your campaign world.
Humans are +0 ECL and have two significant advantages, so in theory races start at a -2 level and build up.
Natural attack doing tiny weapon damage: +0
Small Size: +1
Extra Move (+10 ft): +1
Natural Armor +1: +1
Unbalanced Attributes (+2 STR, +6 DEX, +4 CON, +2 WIS, CHR -4): +2
Scent: +1
No arms, no manipulators: -1
Most abilities do not scale at higher levels (scent, low natural armor bonus, small size): -2
So I'd guess that an awakened dog has about a +1 ECL. At low levels you'd be quite powerful, but ultimately the in ability to use or wield anything would be a significant penalty. If you wanted to go for +0 ECL, you could add like a -4 or -6 penalty to intelligence.
There could concievably be some social stigma to being an awakened animal as well; in particular people might not consider it murder to kill a dog unless talking animals or animistic beliefs are common in your campaign world.
Dingleberry
First Post
I should note that mine was a riding dog: Medium-size, with the "Trip" special attack.
Regardless, Celebrim, you're forgetting a significant factor: Hit Dice.
Regardless, Celebrim, you're forgetting a significant factor: Hit Dice.
Last edited:
Celebrim
Legend
I'm not forgetting HD. Small dogs have 1 HD. I choose them precisely to keep things simple.
A bigger dog doesn't change my analysis much, it just changes how many levels (in HD) of 'dog' you start with.
But, assuming a medium sized dog, you switch out +1 ECL for being size small with +1 additional ECL for +4 natural armor bonus. Strength goes up to base +4, dex down to base +4 - I call that a wash.
All that really changes is that medium dogs have 2HD, so they start as basically 2nd level characters with a +1 ECL template, or +2 ECL total.
You still start out as fairly powerful, but in the long run you are going to have serious problems due to your lack of hands and only single relatively weak natural attack. Druid is one of the few ways of really dealing with that effectively, and +ECL templates severely hamper spell casters who would usually prefer the spell progression.
A bigger dog doesn't change my analysis much, it just changes how many levels (in HD) of 'dog' you start with.
But, assuming a medium sized dog, you switch out +1 ECL for being size small with +1 additional ECL for +4 natural armor bonus. Strength goes up to base +4, dex down to base +4 - I call that a wash.
All that really changes is that medium dogs have 2HD, so they start as basically 2nd level characters with a +1 ECL template, or +2 ECL total.
You still start out as fairly powerful, but in the long run you are going to have serious problems due to your lack of hands and only single relatively weak natural attack. Druid is one of the few ways of really dealing with that effectively, and +ECL templates severely hamper spell casters who would usually prefer the spell progression.
I would argue that a "dog" hit die is not equal to a level in any class -- thus I would not count them as part of the ECL on a one-for-one basis. This breaks with the system set forth in Savage Species -- but that book, in fact, specifically recommends NOT allowing awakened animals as PCs and avoids giving any rules or guidelines for them.
Celebrim
Legend
nharwell: Don't get me wrong, I think Savage Species is a great book. It is probably the best book WotC has put out since MotP.
However, it is very inappropriately subtitled and marketed because the book sucks as a guide for PC's as monsters.
What it is excellent as is a guide to DMing NPC's who are monsters, and creating new monstrous NPC's. The portion of the book recieving the most attention on the boards - the suggested monster class advancements for a variaty of odd monsters is actually one of the least interesting and useful things in the whole book. The best use I can make out for it, is a guideline for converting (Ravenloft style) NPC's into monstrous NPC's over time. In other words, I might add a few levels of 'Minotaur' to a human with a particularly evil taint, but I think 1st level 'Minotaur' as a PC class is fairly ridiculous. Other examples (say Titan) are even worse.
I guess, since I'm not actually selling anything, that I can be a little braver than the publishers of the book and say that sure PC's can be awakened animals. I wouldn't exactly recommend it, but it isn't going to break any games. It wouldn't be quite as bad as playing something that can't talk, but I think that it would get old fairly quickly.
Since I'm primarily interested in monstrous rules as a tool for NPC construction and balance, the unfunness of a single character doesn't bother me nearly as much. After all, as a DM, I've got a pletheora of characters to choose from (whether I'm completely happy with that fact or not).
However, it is very inappropriately subtitled and marketed because the book sucks as a guide for PC's as monsters.
What it is excellent as is a guide to DMing NPC's who are monsters, and creating new monstrous NPC's. The portion of the book recieving the most attention on the boards - the suggested monster class advancements for a variaty of odd monsters is actually one of the least interesting and useful things in the whole book. The best use I can make out for it, is a guideline for converting (Ravenloft style) NPC's into monstrous NPC's over time. In other words, I might add a few levels of 'Minotaur' to a human with a particularly evil taint, but I think 1st level 'Minotaur' as a PC class is fairly ridiculous. Other examples (say Titan) are even worse.
I guess, since I'm not actually selling anything, that I can be a little braver than the publishers of the book and say that sure PC's can be awakened animals. I wouldn't exactly recommend it, but it isn't going to break any games. It wouldn't be quite as bad as playing something that can't talk, but I think that it would get old fairly quickly.
Since I'm primarily interested in monstrous rules as a tool for NPC construction and balance, the unfunness of a single character doesn't bother me nearly as much. After all, as a DM, I've got a pletheora of characters to choose from (whether I'm completely happy with that fact or not).
Dingleberry
First Post
Celebrim said:
We're talking about an awakened dog here, right? Doesn't awaken grant additional Hit Dice? I'm presently bookless, but I believe it's +2 HD. If that's right, I think we're almost on the same page.
Celebrim
Legend
Oh yeah....you are right.
Completely forgot about the extra HD from the spell itself.
Hmm... Extra HD is great for the druid sacrificing XP, but that extra HD complicates things for PC dogs needlessly. But yeah, by the rules add two levels for the two additional HD which would bring an awakened medium riding dog up to +4 ECL.
It would also be a pretty pathetic character once you've been forced to take that many levels of 'dog'. 'Animal' (unlike say 'Outsider'), is more in line with the power of 'Warrior' or a similar NPC class. Arguably, it would completely elimenate any advantage of the 'dog' template since 'dog' is pretty front ended with minor advantages that have little real long term value. You could arguably drop it down to +3 ECL and be done with it.
Completely forgot about the extra HD from the spell itself.
Hmm... Extra HD is great for the druid sacrificing XP, but that extra HD complicates things for PC dogs needlessly. But yeah, by the rules add two levels for the two additional HD which would bring an awakened medium riding dog up to +4 ECL.
It would also be a pretty pathetic character once you've been forced to take that many levels of 'dog'. 'Animal' (unlike say 'Outsider'), is more in line with the power of 'Warrior' or a similar NPC class. Arguably, it would completely elimenate any advantage of the 'dog' template since 'dog' is pretty front ended with minor advantages that have little real long term value. You could arguably drop it down to +3 ECL and be done with it.
Dingleberry
First Post
Oh, I agree it could make for an underpowered PC. Depends on the class and, of course, the campaign. IMC, the dog in question isn't a PC, but rather an NPC (animal companion/mount to a gnome druid) - and he's taken a few levels of barbarian, which works pretty well.
As far as long-term usefulness, the bite damage becomes irrelevant pretty quickly unless magically enhanced, but the Trip and Scent abilities hold up pretty well.
As far as long-term usefulness, the bite damage becomes irrelevant pretty quickly unless magically enhanced, but the Trip and Scent abilities hold up pretty well.
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