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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 5842305" data-attributes="member: 3400">I think whether or not save or die effects are good/bad depends on the use they are put to in the game. Too much use or too much unpredictable use and they become problematic, particularly when alternatives are available. For example, I much prefer stat damage over save or die poisons. That gives the game a lot of different gradations of effects that can be applied via poisons rather than just death or KO/sleep. On the other hand, the power of a medusa is well known. Anybody getting close to one without using precautions deserves what they get (and I've recently presided over a medusa-caused TPK). For some things, like charm effects, I really do like multiple saves rather than a single save, particularly for lower-level spells. They reflect the will's continuing efforts to throw off control and revert to normal function. I think that works really well. I also like the way PF has provided some variety to petrification effects with the cockatrice, basilisk, and medusa rather than have a repetitive save or die effect.But one thing about save or sit spells and other encounter enders - their negative effect on players directly proportional to the length of combat. If a charm or hold spell takes a PC out of combat, that's not a big deal if the combat is 3-4 rounds and 20 minutes long. It's a huge deal if the combat takes an hour and a half and the charm hit in the first 10 minutes. That's a combined problem with the save or sit effect AND the length of combat encounters. Fixing one well probably means you don't have to fix the other factor as much.One other thing about encounter ending SoDs in 3e-based games - this time targeting the NPCs. The more you have available to the PCs (and the more your players embrace the strategy), the more you tend to have laser focused optimization that may put players out of sync in play and build style. Providing more secondary effects on a successful save can help reduce the premium for super-optimization.</blockquote>

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