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Message: <blockquote data-quote="oxybe" data-source="post: 6284015" data-attributes="member: 80033">the problem with this train of thought is that i've seen great characters be per-emptively retired entirely because they were unable to pull their weight. the character still had the potential for moving the story along, but anytime something came up that could challenge the other characters, his best option was often to use aide another rather then actually attempt anything by himself. the player got frustrated and eventually retired the PC. it happens. optimization is there to make sure that your character doesn't stop being relevant when the numbers start mattering... and in most games, the numbers will matter at some point and in D&D that very often occurs in times where you character can die in a very messy fashion.and if i have several concepts i'm stewing on, i'll very much pick the one that has the best chance of surviving those situations.i think the main point of contention between you two is that some people like having more in-game mechanics that enforce their concepts rather then play a game of "GM may i?". neither is wrong, and i can see the benefit of playing a game that's lighter on the rule aspect and going a bit more off the cuff / fast and loose with some interpretations but i will say that i do feel that there is a something special when you can invoke a character ability or trait and have a mechanic or two that represents it. to use an example, it's like how the 4th ed warlord can use a power to immediately get his allies to reposition themselves. for some people, that's immersion breaking or seen as supernatural/unnatural. for others, it enforces the idea that the character is able to quickly analyze the battlefield and get his allies in the best positions... a warlord, or at least someone with experience leading others in combat. to each his own.part of the issue is that i want options at level 1 rather then a level 7, but still be fighting orcs and goblins and stuff. basically, a level 1 pyromancer, i my mind would have an array of different fire based spells. think of it like having a burning hands, shocking grasp, magic missile, shield, etc... but all fire themed. so think burning hands, immolating touch, firebolt, flame barrier (+4 AC and maybe 5 fire resist instead of stopping magic missile?). maybe a spell that allows one to shape/control small fires or a cantrip that, like prestidigitation, can warm food or items to a comfortable level or create a small fire, akin to a candlelight. basically as a "pyromancer" at first level i'd like to have various ways i can use fire, magical or otherwise, to do stuff. i want options but still at the lower scope of the early game.  now, one of the big problems with the Pyromancer concept is that fire resistance or immunity is VERY common in Dungeons&Dragonia, so picking a spell list of only fire spells (or a feat that lets me change the damage type to fire) is enforcing my concept, but hurting my character's viability for the most part. because as long as the numbers don't matter, i'm doing fire stuff and it's neat, but as soon as the numbers DO matter, well... i'm not so hot (YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAH /CSI-Miami).unless i start optimizing, which can take several levels before i can overcome the resistance/immunity barrier an elemental specialist in D&D is likely to face and become a "real" pyromancer. but at that point i've spent a lot of effort (levels, feats, skills points maybe) just to reach the same parity a default wizard would have without any of those expenditures.... i'm going to start wondering if playing certain concepts is even worth my effort.two people may very well end up taking different routes to get to the same theoretical goal, but that's because no given route will be appealing to everyone and not everyone approaches the goal from the same angle. to each their own, and if D&D doesn't offer me the experience i like, i'll look elsewhere... i'm not really tied to the D&D brand.</blockquote>

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