NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6284660" data-attributes="member: 42582">These seem to me to be two different conceptions of what high level is for.(1) High level is for opening up certain options for play (options which make it worth enduring certain perceived costs). (2) High level is a reward for playing the game - it unlocks certain desirable options.Conception 2 makes me think of video-game design, to the extent that I understand video game design. It is not compatible with option 1, according to which high level is not a reward, but a tool (with costs and benefits).At least in my current 4e play, I don't think either (1) or (2) adequately characterises what high level is for, although each gets at elements of it. High level opens up certain mechanical options, but they are relatively modest. As I have posted in the current "epic levels" thread, the main changes with levelling in 4e are story-oriented rather than mechanically oriented. As I see it, the main function of high levels in 4e is to make a certain story experience possible. It does this by combining multiple features: (a) Ongoing character change (which plays a certain role in keeping things interesting), which is also expresses improvement in modest mechanical ways (the most dramatic of these would be access to flight and access to self-resurrection, I think) and in noticeable story ways (I gain a paragon path, than an epic destiny); (b) As long as the default Monster Manuals are used, the antagonists will change over time in a fashion that expresses the "story of D&D" - starting with kobolds (or similar), ending with Tiamat (or similar), which by implication brings with it a gradual expansion in the scope and depth of the fictional stakes.This is a set-up for long term play, and if you are not going in for long term play then I think you have little need of 4e's high levels (unless you really want flight and self-resurrection). If you are not playing in that long term way, then you won't experience the contrastive and amplificative significance of gaining a paragon path or an epic destiny (you may as well just build all that sort of stuff into your 1st level class or theme). And there is no inherent point to having hit points, attack and damage grow numerically - this is just a device for interacting with the default Monster Manuals.I believe that WotC recognised all of the above when it published the Neverwinter campaign supplement. This has a good range of 1st level themes (to allow players to build the character they want to play right away, without having that made into a more contrastive experience via gradual acquisition of paragon path and epic destiny). And it re-builds a whole lot of monsters which story-wise are paragon tier (eg drow, mindflayers) to make them numerically and mechanically heroic tier.This is an excellent model for more short term play: you don't need (a), because you're not playing for the long term; and you depart from (b) so that you can frame the story you want to frame using the smaller numbers and somewhat reduced mechanical complexity of heroic tier.I haven't engaged much with 4e Darksun, but it seems to me that to some extent it also departs from (b): it reframes the default antagonists so that gaining levels doesn't as dramatically change the underlying fictional stakes as it does for default 4e. I'm not entirely sure if this would make for a fun experience (I haven't tried it): my worry is that it could make the long term play a bit same-y storywise, and I have certainly thought to myself that if I were to run 4e Darksun I would probably increase the rate of level up (perhaps by skipping even-numbered level) to help ameliorate this possible problem.</blockquote>

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