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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jordan" data-source="post: 283977" data-attributes="member: 3362">Re: let's see...As has been pointed out, having the fighters take a 14 Wis is automatically handicapping them from the start. If the fighter's going to go the full plate route, a 14 Dex is a waste too. But for the sake of argument, we'll use these stats (maybe the fighter wanted a better Will save, or something).These must be the 4th level characters, right? A 4th level fighter gets 5,400 gp to spend on gear. A +1 weapon only costs 2,000 gp, and it's probably going to be one of the fighter's highest priorities, so it's pretty safe to assume the fighter will have a +1 sword. So that makes his chance to hit +8 (+4 BAB, +2 Str, +1 focus, +1 sword)65% chance, or .65 hits per round.d8 + 5 damage (+2 str +2 specialization +1 sword) gives average 9.5 damage per hit.At .65 hits per round, Regdar deals an average of (9.5 x .65 = 6.175) about 6.2 points per round.Okay, Ember has +3 BAB +2 Str and +1 focus, -2 for flurry, for +4/+4. Damage is d8+2.Ember does an average of 6.5 points per hit. Hitting an average of .9 times per round gives us an average of 5.85 points per round. Slightly less than the fighter.Now here's a few other things to consider.First, a monk can only flurry when they make a full attack action. Regdar, being a fighter with only one attack, doesn't have to worry about this. His average damage is always the same. But when Ember has to move either before or after attacking (which is going to happen a significant amount of the time, most likely), her damage drops to about 3.6 points per round.Second, AC. Regdar probably would have bought some magic armor to go along with his magic sword. Let's give him a +1 breastplate and a +1 large steel shield (total cost about 2250 gp, he still has money left over even after buying the sword). That gives him an AC of 21 (+6 armor +2 dex +3 shield). Say Ember bought a ring of protection +1. That makes her AC 15 (+2 dex +2 wis +1 deflection). Even when buffed by mage armor for an AC of 19, it's still not as good as the fighter's.Third, as enemy AC increases, the monk's effectiveness drops off compared to the fighter, until you reach the point where both of them can only hit on a natural 20. But how often does that happen?Look at an enemy with a 21 AC. Regdar has a 40% chance to hit. So does Ember (two 20% chances, again if she can use the full attack action). They have exactly the same chance to hit, but Regdar does an average of 3 points more per hit.The disparity will only increase as the characters go up in level, since the fighter can acquire more powerful magic weapons and armor, and the monk can't. Magic weapons provide all sorts of things, bonuses to hit and damage, extra elemental damage, keen edge (the best critical a monk can ever get unarmed is 19-20/x2; a fighter could end up with 15-20/x2 for a longsword, or 18-20/x3 for a greataxe), etc., that the monk simply can't match with unarmed attacks.To sum up, a fighter will always have the advantage over a monk in terms of offense (unless the characters are stripped of equipment, which should be a fairly rare occurence). A monk may have the advantage in terms of defense, but since 3E is a party-based game, it favors offense over defense. Even if your enemies can't hurt your character, if you can't kill them quickly, they'll kill your party members instead. This is why I don't think the monk is very effective.</blockquote>

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