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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tzarevitch" data-source="post: 294253" data-attributes="member: 1792">Where does this line about monks not being able to do damage keep coming from?Monks get some very big dice at high levels and they get a lot of swings. Honestly, monks are much less dependent on Str to do damage than most classes. I also don't see where the complaint about hit points comes from. D8 statistically is not much worse than the d10 that the fighters use. If you have a high CON then the exact die roll matters even less. I do admit that monks are probably the most stat dependent class in the PHB. Paladins are pretty bad too but at least they can wear armor and shaft dex. Monks can only afford to shaft Cha safely. They need strength to help them hit more than for the damage (the die itself is so large at high levels it generates more of the damage on average than the Str bonus does). Magic weapons help with the hit problem but the monk tends to use obscure weapons that are rarely ever found. The monk needs dex to NOT get hit since they can't make effective use of armor. Wis is probably the monk's most important stat, both to help not get hit and because it helps the DC against the monk's other abilities (such as stunning blow). They also need Int because they get too few skill points and of course everybody needs some Con. I do agree that the monk has problems. Most of these are trivial and easily house-ruled. First, the monk has WAY too few skill points. 6+Int would be better. The monk is the second most skill-dependent class after the rogue and it's 4+int skill points is too low for them to have many of the skills they need at levels that they need them.Second, the monk's Ki Strike (or whatever it is called) that allows them to strike creatures that need magic weapons is too feeble. It is too low and comes in too late. By the time a monk can breach +1 every warrior-type in the party probably has +2 weapons. If I remember correctly, the monk doesn't even get the hit or damage bonuses from it. This can however be remedied with monk-weapons (which are all pretty bad and hard to find to boot). I also allow monks to enchant brass knuckles so that they do their barehanded damage WITH the enhancements from the knuckles (i.e. the knuckles do not have a damage die, you use the die from your fist.)Third, the monk's SR is lame. I wouldn't object to the fact that you get it so late if it weren't for the fact that the SR is so low.  By the time you get it it is too weak to do much for you and there is no way to boost it through abilities or feats. Fourth, the monk has no way to boost the DC of his abilities wihtout boosting his stats. Couple this with feeble DCs and you can see why most of the monk abilities that affect others never work. This is easily remedied by adding feats that help.Honestly, while I do agree that the monk should not be in the PHB (it should be in OA where the rules do it justice), most of the monk's problems come from the fact that the players running them play them so badly. Monk is the single most poorly played class that I have ever seen. I have seen more monks run up to the big bad thing and get splattered than I'd care to name. Monks should not play like fighters. They are not  fighters any more than a rogue is a fighter. If the rogue goes toe to toe with a golem he will probably die, yet no one whines that rogues are weak. The monk is a spec-ops guy. He is not a shock trooper. The monk uses his stealth and skills to get close to high-value, soft targets (usually mages and priests) and takes them out. His abilities are almost tailor made to be able to disable spellcasters. He has good saves, evasion, high speed and does significant damage. He is also a compentent spy and infiltrator. Basically the perfect spec-ops guy. If players learn to use the monk properly its abilities do shine (as much as the PHB allows anyway). If you want to go toe-to-toe with a giant or a golem, play a  fighter. Tzarevitch</blockquote>

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