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<blockquote data-quote="Gizzard" data-source="post: 295117" data-attributes="member: 527">OK, perfect.&nbsp; Does anyone disagree with this?&nbsp; People seem to be talking about all different levels of Monks (and Monk equipment! And non-PHB Monks!) as if they were all the same.&nbsp; Please specify the *kind* of Monk you think doesnt suck if you are defending Monks.&nbsp; ;-)&nbsp;Sure, Mage-killing is what a high-level Monk is good at.&nbsp; Does this role make sense for a Monk under 6th level?&nbsp; Nope.&nbsp; The Monk doesnt have any better speed than the Barbarian at this point, and low-level mages arent as comparatively dangerous as high-level mages anyway.&nbsp; By the time I run across the open field at 40' speed, a low level mage has exhausted his 3 best spells.I also disagree that a Priest is a &quot;soft&quot; target that a Monk can take out.&nbsp; The BAB, STR bonus, AC and HPs tend to be roughly equal between the two classes.&nbsp; I think everyone agrees that Cleric is a very strong class under 3E; I expect a fight against a Cleric to be a pitched battle.&nbsp; As for being an infiltrator; this works if you are above ground in daylight or have Darkvision.&nbsp; If you dont have Darkvision, you will not be performing this role well.&nbsp; This really constrains what a Human Monk can do, for instance.&nbsp; As a practical matter, if &quot;spy&quot; is one of the Monks main abilities then people have to take a non-Human race in order to make it useful.&nbsp; (And they also have to play in a campaign where spying is useful, which is not always the case either.)Basically, I agree that the Monk (especially the high-level Monk) has a role to play.&nbsp; It may be a narrow role and a little monotonous, but at least the rest of the party wont look at him and think, &quot;What is it that you do again?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I kill the Wizard before he kills you all.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;OK, thats a good thing, carry on.&quot; But, so many of the Monks special abilities are narrowly focused like that; 9/10s of the time I am just a bad Fighter.&nbsp; And the one time in 10 that I get to do something useful is not enough to carry my weight.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gizzard, post: 295117, member: 527"] OK, perfect. Does anyone disagree with this? People seem to be talking about all different levels of Monks (and Monk equipment! And non-PHB Monks!) as if they were all the same. Please specify the *kind* of Monk you think doesnt suck if you are defending Monks. ;-) Sure, Mage-killing is what a high-level Monk is good at. Does this role make sense for a Monk under 6th level? Nope. The Monk doesnt have any better speed than the Barbarian at this point, and low-level mages arent as comparatively dangerous as high-level mages anyway. By the time I run across the open field at 40' speed, a low level mage has exhausted his 3 best spells. I also disagree that a Priest is a "soft" target that a Monk can take out. The BAB, STR bonus, AC and HPs tend to be roughly equal between the two classes. I think everyone agrees that Cleric is a very strong class under 3E; I expect a fight against a Cleric to be a pitched battle. As for being an infiltrator; this works if you are above ground in daylight or have Darkvision. If you dont have Darkvision, you will not be performing this role well. This really constrains what a Human Monk can do, for instance. As a practical matter, if "spy" is one of the Monks main abilities then people have to take a non-Human race in order to make it useful. (And they also have to play in a campaign where spying is useful, which is not always the case either.) Basically, I agree that the Monk (especially the high-level Monk) has a role to play. It may be a narrow role and a little monotonous, but at least the rest of the party wont look at him and think, "What is it that you do again?" "I kill the Wizard before he kills you all." "OK, thats a good thing, carry on." But, so many of the Monks special abilities are narrowly focused like that; 9/10s of the time I am just a bad Fighter. And the one time in 10 that I get to do something useful is not enough to carry my weight. [/QUOTE]

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