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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ridley's Cohort" data-source="post: 298686" data-attributes="member: 545">YOU used the grapple rules as an example of the monk excellence.  I am pointing out that Barbarians and Fighters who choose that path are comparable at unarmed combat to a monk, sometimes better, sometimes worse, just by spending a feat or two.By the time a monk can roll d12 for damage a similar level fighter or barbarian is going to defeat him in an opposing grapple 75%-90% of the time based on BAB and Str differences, as well as having 50%-100% more hit points.  Who cares if the monk is averaging more damage when he connects?  It doesn't matter in the long run.Monk touch AC?  These guys will have +15 or better with their bare hands.  I don't think there will be a problem getting the touch, although the AoO the monk gets when grappling begins might be.  Of course, that AoO can be avoided by spending a feat or two.Subdual damage is almost always sufficient and it is quite rare to need to fight unarmed.  It is rarer still to need to do so against DR or other weird defenses.  When would that happen?  I am at a tea party and the golems invade?  I think I will just pick up a table and use it as an improvised two-handed weapon and have someone cast Magic Weapon on it.A monk who spends precious skill points on Escape Artist is implicitly accepting the role of party baggage.  He has a number of actually useful skills to buy and scant points to do it with.  Ever hear of Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Climb and Jump?  Any PC of mine who finds out the monk is a superior escape artist is going to look for excuses to get that character kicked out of the party...</blockquote>

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